ADAM GRANT
OPTION B
EPISODE 77
Completing our Adam Grant series, Mike and Mark explore 'Option B: Facing Adversity, Building Resilience, and Finding Joy', and the ways in which we can cultivate resilience.
Everyone experiences some form of Option B. We all deal with loss: jobs lost, loves lost, lives lost. The question is not whether these things will happen but how we face them when they do. Thoughtful, honest, revealing and warm, Option B weaves Sandberg’s experiences coping with adversity with new findings from Adam Grant and other social scientists. The book features stories of people who recovered from personal and professional hardship, including illness, injury, divorce, job loss, sexual assault and imprisonment. These people did more than recover—many of them became stronger.Option B (Buy on Amazon). We all deal with loss: jobs lost, loves lost, lives lost. The question is not whether these things will happen but how we face them when they do. Thoughtful, honest, revealing and warm,
SHOW OUTLINE
INTRO
Sheryl and Adam talk about how we have control over our response to adversity and major anxiety
Option B_ Facing Adversity, Building Resilience, and Finding Joy
HOW TO FIND RESILIENCE AND OVERCOME ANXIETY
Giving to others - and being needed by others - builds resilience. Joy gives us strength and hope
Building Collective Resilience by Helping Others
When crisis hit, it’s an opportunity to be excited and thrive! Post-traumatic growth can be achieved at work
How to Manage Crisis and Pressure to Enhance Creativity and Productivity
TIPS ON BEING A SUPPORTIVE LEADER (CAREER AND HOME LIFE)
It’s ok to struggle. To be a resilient leader, be open, welcome constructive feedback - admit to yourself, so you can become resilient
Grant Option B / what it takes to become a resilient leader
The more we are equipped to deal with adversity early on, the better we’ll be when struggling later
Advice for Raising Resilient Kids
OTHER
The secret to success? Constructive arguments and feedback
How to give feedback so people hear you're trying to help
LINKS TO ADAM’S ONLINE RESOURCES
https://optionb.org/build-resilienc
TRANSCRIPT
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Mike Parsons: Hello and welcome to the moonshots podcast. It's a sensational episode 77 I'm your cohost Mike Parsons and as always, the man with a plan, the man himself, Mark Pearson-Freeland. Good morning, Mark.
Mark Peasron-Freeland: Good morning, Mike. It is a pretty soggy day. In Sydney, isn't it? It's a very autumnal almost wind today.
Mike Parsons: Soggy, soggy is indeed the right word, but there's nothing soggy about the thinking of Adam grant is there.
Mark Peasron-Freeland: Ah, I tell you what, this series, you know, starting with give and take. Then into originals and now into option B. It's just been a great one. I've enjoyed delving into Adam Grant's work (buy on Amazon) so, so much. What about you, Mike? Adam Grant's work so, so much. What about you, Mike?
Mike Parsons: I, I must say that I've known of Adam and his work for some time, but having got into it, I'm not sure if I can say he's quite at a Simon Sinek level. Simon Sinek level.
Um. But he is a real contender. Um, in terms of presenting, thinking that we can, we can really use, um, I love this idea, um, of the give and take, which was the first part of the series. Um, and being far more humble. And how we go out to the world and to, to help others. And then I, I thought it was super inspiring originals, the previous show, but really, really thought about how to think differently, how to maybe be a bit contrarion, um, and how it's a real habit that you have to build.
I thought. That was fantastic. But today we go into option B, which he co-wrote with shell Sandberg of Facebook, and it is, it's a really hefty one. I think, uh, um, this, this package comes labeled with heavy duty. Don't you think, man,
Mark Peasron-Freeland: it does look this, this book more so than the others is just very, very personal, is obviously.
You know, supplemented with lots and lots of Adam grants. Uh, dr Adam Grant's excellent data and all the research that he's done, but it's really, really touching. It's very, very personal and very, very open. And like you say, it should probably come with a little bit of a, a, um, when you do get into the book, it's, it can be quite.
Challenging and quite emotional,
Mike Parsons: so I think, yeah, I think the way to frame what's to come on this show is we're going to get into a. Into this idea of being resilient, which seems quite appropriate since we're all being quarantine and stuck at home and dealing with that whole transition. But you know, resilience really starts by step number one is facing up to adversity and not running away from it.
Um, and not running away from your problems, but facing them and building that resilience. Because if you do that, there's so many good things for film and joy, happiness, all that good stuff. If you can, um, follow this advice from Adam Grant, and we're going to not only show you how to get tough, get in the ring with resilience, with adversity, and give it some resilient knock around, but we're also going to show how you can become a leader and how you can transform the people.
Around you. So it is going to be an action packed show. So we've got lots of great clips for the third and final part of our Adam Grant series. But before we go there, Mark, we have a very special announcement. We've achieved a very special, uh, hallmark for the show. How many ratings and reviews have we reached?
Mark Peasron-Freeland: Mark. Let me, let me just pull out the trumpet. I want to thank everybody. We have reached the 100 ratings and reviews Mark. Woo.
Mike Parsons: That is pretty damn awesome. A huge thank you to all of you listening to the show. This means that across all the different podcasts, apps, and software and all those gadgets, we have been reviewed and rated, uh, now over a hundred times.
And, um, it is. Um, a key way, uh, to new people discovering the show. So we're incredibly grateful for people doing that. Um, and if you're listening to this and thinking actually Mike and Mark, they're not too shabby. They're not too bad. We'll then just jump into your software that you're listening to this show on.
Um, and leave a little rating or review. Send us your heart, your thumbs up, whatever you got for us. We'll take it. And we certainly love to hear as well. Um, people's, um, feedback and suggestions. Adam grad in fact, was a suggestion from you, our listeners. So we should probably dig into the archives and find out which listener centers that email.
Uh, so note to self there, but, um, who was the person that got us across the a hundred Mark?
Mark Peasron-Freeland: Well, I'm going to claim it is. Mr Raffin sag from Germany, who left us a very, very kind review the other day, and I'm going to give him or her the, uh, the award. I think the metal,
Mike Parsons: the Sentara in here. The Centurion award.
Mark Peasron-Freeland: Exactly. Exactly.
Mike Parsons: Nice. And you know, the reason why this is so important for you, Mark, and all of our listeners, is we catapulted through these ratings and reviews. Uh, we now hit top hundred charts in Canada, Austria, Poland, Portugal, Argentina, Singapore, and of course. Uganda, so they're all new listeners to the show.
We welcome all of you, and we hope that you can enjoy learning from innovators, which is really at the heart of what we do here at the moonshots. I
Mark Peasron-Freeland: just, as we've been talking as well, I did do a little bit of research just into the archive to find out our
Mike Parsons: very, very, uh.
Mark Peasron-Freeland: Helpful and attentive listener. Who did suggest
Mike Parsons: Adam grimier?
Who was it?
Mark Peasron-Freeland: It was ms Melanie Bordeaux from Belgium. Thank you so much. This was fantastic.
Mike Parsons: Go. Ew. Belgium mites. Great beer. Great waffles. All Belgium nationals are welcome on this show with great suggestions. Boy, I used to live right next to Belgium when I was living in the Netherlands and I was very fond of heading down to blue and Brussels.
Wonderful part of the world. Um, and what's another part of the world, Mark, that people can go to if they're thinking, I'd love to get into the archives of moonshots.
Mark Peasron-Freeland: It is a great segue, by the way. Um, is moonshots.io. Everybody can go and find all of our archives shows. Everything is on there, all 76 previous episodes, uh, launching over the last couple of years.
You can also see a sneak peek of some of the future shows that we're thinking about covering. Again, we're always, always open to submissions like Melanie's with any suggested topics and innovators. We love to hear from our listeners what they would like us to, to delve into. Um, you can also reach out to us@helloatmoonshots.io.
Every email is, uh, is read and responded to. So please do get in touch if you like. And, uh, again. Ratings and reviews. We read all of those too. So no matter what your do method of contact, we will get the message, so please stay.
Mike Parsons: Absolutely, absolutely. All right. With no further ado, Matt, let's catapult ourselves.
Let's throw ourselves into, uh, the book option B, which Adam Grant wrote with Sheryl Sandberg. We're going to open it up. With a big kind of thematic opening clip where, uh, you'll also get to hear from Cheryl herself. So let's dive into the world of facing. Adversity. Years ago, I lost my husband, Dave unexpectedly, which is an unimaginable thing to live through.
It felt like I was sucked into a void, like I couldn't quite breathe or sink. I didn't think I was going to get through it and I was even more worried about getting my children through it. I could barely get through it myself, let alone get my two children through this.
Adam Grant: We can't control what happens
Mike Parsons: to us.
Adam Grant: But we do have some influence over how we respond to the events and hardships in our lives.
Mike Parsons: What Adam gave me were specific things I could do,
Adam Grant: but we wanted to write a book that would combine her insights with the best evidence, but also with other people's stories
Mike Parsons: becoming paralyzed with
It was written up by a
Mark Peasron-Freeland: week at a glance. You know, on my 18th birthday, I was sent to prison,
Mike Parsons: sexual abuse. Led to wanting to end my life, or
Mark Peasron-Freeland: when my mom was waked out on trucks and I was pretty much phrasing my brothers and sisters.
Mike Parsons: We all face challenges and some of them are big and huge and traumatic, and some of them are the daily challenges, but we need resilience for all of it.
Adam Grant: Resilience is not a fixed personality trait. It's a lifelong project.
Mike Parsons: A few weeks after Dave died, there was a father son activity. Our friend Phil and I were talking about who should do it. I said, okay, well that's good, but like I want Dave, I want Dave to go with our son, and he said, option a is not available, so let's just kick the shit out of option B.
When you don't have an option,
Adam Grant: when it's totally
Mark Peasron-Freeland: taken away from you forever, you go to option
Mike Parsons: B. I discovered with many, many people discovered. You have a lot more grip
Mark Peasron-Freeland: than you think you do. I've got nothing to lose
Mike Parsons: in trying to live. The biggest life I can ask
Mark Peasron-Freeland: him for help
Mike Parsons: is not a sign of
Mark Peasron-Freeland: weakness. It is a sign of strength to understand when you need help
Mike Parsons: in some way.
We're all living option B, and the idea is how do we make the very most of it?
Mark Peasron-Freeland: Hmm. It's a very, very honest, um. Powerful trailer to the book. I think there's a lot of amazing stories within the book that we can take, uh, you know, lessons from the, the key thing that comes to me after listening to that clip actually is this idea that Adam, as well as the, the individuals, he's, he's, you know, interviewed for the book, which is that challenges come in all shapes and sizes, and we shouldn't.
You know, think less of ourselves. If we are responding to a challenge that might seem a little bit less significant than a loved one passing away. For example. You know, this idea of dealing with grief and challenges, it's, as Adam says, it's not a fixed trait.
Mike Parsons: You
Mark Peasron-Freeland: don't have complete control over everything.
And this idea that is up to us to take that alternative option, and it's up to us about how we can. React and respond to that. That moment, that challenge, that speed bump perhaps is, is really where it, where it comes through, I think. What did you think, Mike?
Mike Parsons: I really liked the fact that what they, what Sheryl and Adam set us up for here is, look, you don't control everything around you and whether it's big or small, you're going to face adversity.
So what Adam is really doing is challenging us to build that resilience muscle. Um, because it's the same thing, um, big or small. It's the same resilience muscle that you've flex. And I love the fact that there was this, uh, little sample. There's a little clip in there of a guy saying, you have a lot more grit than you think.
And I think this is really important. When you are facing adversity and you think you can't be sick, um, you will be amazed at the resilience that lays within us. And so if you can find that as a reflex continuously, I think it sets you up to go and do great things to have not only just a better day, but to be the very best version of yourself.
And I think this book is perfect. For anyone looking to get over something, get through something, or to just be more resilient overall and find the good things that happen when you are resilient. Now, what's interesting, Mark, is that this is not just an individual activity. In fact, a big part of finding your own resilience, overcoming maybe worry or anxiety is actually.
Not only, uh, doing it on your own, but doing it with others. And I think this is where the idea is now going to start to expand. So let's have a listen to Adam talking about sort of building collective resilience and how that starts. With helping others. You know, I think if I had to,
Adam Grant: if I had to guess on what, what's affected me the most, you know, the
Mike Parsons: first thing I would say is, it is, it's just,
Mark Peasron-Freeland: it's baked into the way that I see
Adam Grant: the world.
Mark Peasron-Freeland: Um,
Mike Parsons: and
Adam Grant: sometimes I don't even
Mike Parsons: realize it. So,
Mark Peasron-Freeland: you know, we, we finished writing this whole book about
Adam Grant: resilience
Mike Parsons: and, um,
Adam Grant: you know, low and behold, it turns out the single biggest thing I learned about resilience.
Mike Parsons: Is that
Adam Grant: we find resilience
Mike Parsons: through
Adam Grant: others depending on us,
Mike Parsons: right? When, when, when we know that others need us, we
Mark Peasron-Freeland: find strength.
We didn't know we had,
Adam Grant: and
Mike Parsons: I kind of already knew that,
Adam Grant: but it never occurred to me to say that in the context of resilience. Right?
Mark Peasron-Freeland: Um, and
Mike Parsons: I think it's just, it's a, it's a fundamental truth of human nature, right? That,
Adam Grant: that that purpose had meaning comes through, you know, the,
Mark Peasron-Freeland: the
Adam Grant: time you spend serving other people, contributing to others, being there for others.
Mike Parsons: I guess in in my life. What would impress that
Adam Grant: on me more than anything else was, was probably a few things. One was
Mike Parsons: I had a grandmother who was just.
Adam Grant: Beyond altruistic.
Mike Parsons: I remember once, um,
Adam Grant: you know, my, my mom
Mike Parsons: was hoping to go and exercise and, uh,
Adam Grant: there was a massive snowstorm much worse than today here. Um,
Mike Parsons: this was like, you know, the worst of Michigan snow.
I think we had two feet. And, uh, my grandmother did a 15 minute
Adam Grant: drive
Mike Parsons: that took her two hours and 45 minutes
Mark Peasron-Freeland: to get to our house so that my mom could go exercise. And, you know, she was just
Adam Grant: doing those kinds of things all the
Mark Peasron-Freeland: time. And I think when you're surrounded by those kinds of role models. Um, there are two things that happen.
Adam Grant: One is that you become inspired to want to be like that.
Mark Peasron-Freeland: And the other is that
Mike Parsons: you wonder, like, why? Like, who does this? Uh, you know, and, and I think I repeatedly came across people who operated that way.
Adam Grant: I had my first diving coach, Eric Best
Mike Parsons: live that way.
Adam Grant: He volunteered nine months a year
Mike Parsons: and coached me for free
Adam Grant: out of the season,
Mike Parsons: just because, you know, he, he
Mark Peasron-Freeland: wanted to see me succeed and,
Adam Grant: and he's, he really enjoyed that role.
And he
Mark Peasron-Freeland: said, I
Adam Grant: will always put in the same amount of time that you put in. And
Mark Peasron-Freeland: you know, when, when
Adam Grant: people, when people are that
Mark Peasron-Freeland: giving, right? It just, it, it makes a Mark
Mike Parsons: and, you know, you start to think, well, I guess the thought I
Adam Grant: had was, I think the most meaningful thing that I could do with my life is to try
Mark Peasron-Freeland: to pay that forward, pay it forward.
That's it. Great. Claire. Um, because you're getting a sneak peek actually into some of Adam grants foundation. You know, you're doing a little bit about what inspired him, which, which I think is really, really powerful. Um, this idea that his. Uh, diving, um, teacher and trainer put in the time to, to always, always dedicate the same amount of time to go with Adam and, and, you know, commit himself to it is nice.
And I like this idea that. Adam would be inspired by the trainer taking the time out of his day to do the same. And that's where that strength comes. So no matter how tired you're feeling, no matter how, um, you know, down or distracted, maybe you are, once you start looking at those around you and who's trying to help you, you do find, you know, strength from that.
You do find resilience from that. And, and as Adam says, you know, as I do have purpose and meaning from other people, is a very, very. A significant concept,
Mike Parsons: but
Mark Peasron-Freeland: actually when you do think about it in a proactive way, right. What am I struggling with? Okay. Maybe it's as simple as me asking for help, or maybe it's as simple as me saying an idea out loud.
I, I think that's, you know, it can be boiled right down to its simplest form.
Mike Parsons: Yeah. The, the, um, the idea that. I think, you know, the funny thing is he was talking, I totally related to it. From what you see, when people are exercise together, when they go for a walk or they joke together, it's this mutual dependency makes them resilient and they get out there and they go work out.
Um, that's why I work out buddies, or he's such a good idea. If you're. Maybe motivation for working out. It doesn't come naturally. Get a workout buddy. Um, if you're facing challenges at work, share it with a buddy. I think the other thing is, it's sort of like, it's a team sport resilience. But what's quite interesting is we often carry these burdens, um, and keep them to ourselves.
Like things that really worry you. It's quite unusual to see people really proactively sharing them. Yet you can obviously see that, you know, sharing a burden, um, and helping others, turning resilience into a team sport is like, makes total sense. The interesting things, the things that really bother us, and I see this in myself as well, big time, is I tend to carry that burden.
Uh, on my own shows and keep it to myself. So I guess what advice do you have for me, Mark? How do I turn this more into a team sport rather than bottling it all up inside?
Mark Peasron-Freeland: It's an area that I was really, really hoping that we would obviously delve into today because you're, you're totally right. A lot of the time we do feel as though we're carrying the world on our shoulders.
And actually I have a theory that because of that. In your mind, you know, how we've discussed in previous show, this idea of stress gets focused into your shoulders, into your back, and you know, you can almost feel it. I have a theory was if you are convincing yourself, no, no, this is only for me to carry.
Your body responds. Accordingly. So if you, if your brain and your mindset is, I'm carrying the world by myself, and your body will start feeling tired because it is carrying the world by itself. So my advice is get into a habit of, um, recognizing I think it starts with recognition. So I'm, I'm exactly the same.
I tend to keep a lot of. Things, uh, you know, cards to your chest, so to speak. But I think when you recognize yourself feeling either a little bit overwhelmed or maybe you're questioning a decision or a, whether something is an opportunity or a challenge, perhaps it's recognizing that as a moment when you can let somebody in and through.
You know, practice of saying things out loud to other people. I think it becomes a little bit easier. I certainly struggled with it when I was
Mike Parsons: a lot younger.
Mark Peasron-Freeland: I actually had dreams
Mike Parsons: where
Mark Peasron-Freeland: my, uh, my dreams was, you know, tell me no Mark, you've got to say something out loud. You know, you've got to talk about something with somebody else.
So I, I think once you start seeing. You know, there's physical milestones. That's the opportunity to say right here, I'm going to call out time. I'm going to go and talk to somebody else. Cause a problem. Shaved Chad is a problem half.
Mike Parsons: Mm. And so it's so true. And I think that if we were, if we want to kind of frame the first huge learning.
I think it is in order to face adversity, to know that it is a team sport. And that for all of our listeners, I am sure there are things that bring you happiness, joy, fulfillment in your life. And if you're human, you'll also have some things kind of stressing you out too. And, um, I think the, the learning in this is Adam Grant is encouraging us to find someone.
Uh, to, to share that with someone where you can tell what's on your mind. But the other thing is, and what we're going to get to later in the show is that you can actually lead your way out by helping others first. And that's just another gift. It's like the Adam Grant gift that just keeps on giving, but I don't want to steal a few tickets.
Um, Lou. So now we get to this point, don't we, Mark, where we're in the cross hairs of facing adversity and building resilience. You know, Adam has has primed us. We know it's a collective approach. It's not the world on my shoulders approach. And the moment that I think, um, we really see. Adversity, um, forcing us to make a choice for resilience or not is when a crisis hits.
Um, when you know, what hits the fan, this is the moment that we all need to kind of get ourselves out. And I think, um, we all face some matter of crises. Um, but I think this is the moment because I think our default. To avoid a crisis or not acknowledge it because we might look bad or we might fear the outcome, but I think Adam Grant might have something to teach us here, don't you mind?
Mark Peasron-Freeland: I do. This is a, the next clip is one of my favorites from the Adam Grant series, actually, because it really, really does speak to me. This, this clip is all, as you've just been saying, right. It's hit the fan when crisis has around, it is up to us to control. How we respond to it, and if we can manage it and think about it, how we change that pressure, we can actually use it to enhance the way that we work.
And our creativity
Mike Parsons: crises tend to go in two
Adam Grant: directions. One is that they shut down creativity. The other is that they open it up. And I think a lot of that depends on how the crisis gets framed. So when crisis hits, people usually get nervous. And the thing they try to do is they try to calm down. And that actually doesn't work.
If you give people the instruction to calm down when they're under serious stress or pressure, um, it has no effect on their emotional States whatsoever. And sometimes it makes them even more anxious because they try to calm down and they can't do it because they're feeling so much intense emotion. And then they get anxious about feeling anxious.
So they're Mehta anxious. And that tends to lead to a state that researchers called threat rigidity where they narrow their thinking and their field division and they just focus on how do I protect my job? How do I make sure that you know that I survived this crisis?
Mike Parsons: The
Adam Grant: way that you open things up in crisis is you start by having people think about not how they can calm down, but how they can get excited.
And the great thing about about excitement is just like an anxiety. It's a high intensity emotion. And just like anxiety. It also involves uncertainty, right? You feel anxious when you're not sure what's going to happen. You also feel excited when you're not sure what's going to happen. And so oftentimes what you can do is you can imagine, yes, like a crisis hits.
There are reasons to be afraid.
Mike Parsons: There are also reasons to be excited or
Adam Grant: hopeful about, uh, you know, a better outcome. And as you start to generate reasons why this might be an exciting opportunity. People are much more likely to reframe crisis as a chance to think creatively. A lot of people struggle with performing under pressure, and I think I've learned a lot from the research on this about optimists and what are called defensive pessimists.
Mike Parsons: So
Adam Grant: think about the last time you took a big exam or test about a week beforehand. Optimists will envision the perfect outcome, and then they'll get really excited and then that motivates them to study and they do really well on the tests. Defensive pessimists have a very different experience, which is about a week and a half before the test.
They wake up in the middle of the night having had a nightmare that not only did they fail the exam,
Mike Parsons: but
Adam Grant: they did so badly that their teacher took away points on all their previous exams because there's no way they could have possibly know in the material. And that panic motivates them to study and anxiety really sort of channels all this effort and preparation.
And what's interesting is by the time the exam comes up. They actually defensive pessimists. They do just as well as an optimist. And there's only one way to sabotage the performance of a defensive pessimist, which is to make them happy because when they're feeling positive emotions, they don't get the anxiety that they need and they get complacent and they don't study as hard.
What I've learned from that is anxiety can actually be a helpful motivator as long as you experienced it in advance of the pressure situation, right? So if you're going to give a big speech or you have to prepare for a difficult situation. Um, ideally you get nervous ahead of time and you know that that will motivate you to prepare.
And once you're prepared, your anxiety lowers because you know, you've actually planned for a situation like this.
Mike Parsons: Don't freeze up in the face of adversity that Mark is the big takeout I just got. He's like the, I mean, for me, this is everything, um, that I relate to in this book. And I hope that you and our listeners also see that this is the very moment, this is it.
When you know what hits the fan, when there is a crisis, when things are not going right and were experiencing stress and anxiety frame the crisis. As an opportunity to think creatively, whether you use the the optimist or the pessimist approach. Don't worry, but don't freeze up. Don't run away. Don't deny.
Don't freeze up, face it and deliberately say, how might we find a creative solution for this? To me, this is where I think I learned the most and I am sure, uh, it feels very similar to you. Like don't freeze. Turn it into an opportunity to think creatively. What do you think, Mark?
Mark Peasron-Freeland: Yeah, totally. What I've seen a lot in my career.
Is recommendations and insights from, from colleagues and leaders who have encouraged me to, you know, try and think different, try to look at something that is stressful or difficult, as Adam is saying. Think of it. Think of it as an opportunity to learn something from it. It's an opportunity to. Almost prove to yourself that you can deal with it.
And if you can change your mindset and think of, uh, an opportunity or sorry, as a challenge, as an opportunity
Mike Parsons: to
Mark Peasron-Freeland: be excited, I think that's really, really powerful. It actually reminds me a little bit of when I was, uh, again, a lot younger. Um, I used to do a drama. They used to be in plays and so on and actually want the.
Real key lessons that I remember from, you know, my teachers, and I think this is true for exams. I think this is true for pitches or big projects that you have instead of. The night before thinking, Oh no, it's all going to go wrong. It's putting your mindset exactly as Adam is saying in what is the perfect outcome?
How can I go and achieve it and this strange biological feeling that I'm having of butterflies in the stomach? It's actually excitement. It's actually that opportunity to go out and do my absolute best at the challenge that I have in front of me, and I think that's really empowering.
Mike Parsons: So when you've had these moments, um, he talks about the timing of things being very important, that you, you feel this, uh, excitement or, you know, nervous butterflies sufficiently before the moment.
Tell me about how timing plays a role in you. Facing challenge facing adversity and overcoming it, being resilient and you know, not freezing up. How do you frame it as an opportunity to be creative? Tell me about the factor of time cause I think this plays a big factor in how we can succeed.
Mark Peasron-Freeland: Yeah, it's definitely a significant portion of Adam's work is obviously come at it in the data and he's seen those two variations of character, especially around exam season.
For me. I think that from the out, I think the opportunity to identify it as a perfect opportunity, a challenge, um, to learn is when you see it on your radar as a milestone or a deadline, let's say, let's say we're doing a workshop and we know that this is coming up. We can see it on the horizon. I think the positive way of making sure the output is as strong and as impressive as possible for an individual like myself, for example, is to think about it ahead of time as far ahead of time as you can.
So, I mean, the truth is you probably start feeling the biological mindset aspect a little bit closer, you know, whether it's a meal to before, but actually, yeah. I think the proactive way of doing it, and I think will Adam is encouraging us to do here. You know, he mentioned a week and a half in advance of an exam, is to put that into our minds.
You know, let's say 10 days ahead and you know, almost train your brain into thinking about it every single day in that way.
Mike Parsons: Aye. Aye. Aye. I see exactly what you're saying. I would actually say that this builds on a theme that came up in originals, which is what I mentioned, which is the one week concept, the seven days.
And I feel that a lot of our, um, anxiety around challenge and adversity is that we're not prepared. Hmm. And so I think that if you have a big thing in your agenda, a talk, a deliverable, whatever it is, then get yourself organized. I think what Adam was alluding to is that if you have planned sufficient time, you're able to prepare, which gives you the capacity to move from anxiety to excitement.
So for me, I can see this very vividly in both sports and in work. When I coach a rugby team and they're well prepared, they're really focused, very enthusiastic to get out on the pitch just the same as when I'm well prepared. I've given more than a week to prepare a speech. I just can't wait to get out there and share it.
And when the opposite happens, when not everyone turned up to training at rugby, when I've been too busy on other things than I agreed to, to a speech or a deliverable that's now turning out very hard for me to make the time for, then things can get on done. And that's when the anxiety comes in. So I think timing and preparation pays a big role, and I think it goes even further.
I love the ritual of reflecting on my agenda. Every morning and every night. It's the first thing. It's the last thing of your Workday. I think this is an essential way to know what's coming, to see things on your horizon. And I think like looking at your week view, looking at your month, you, um, for example.
You and I had had a conversation at the office just yesterday talking about how we should plan for vacations over the coming period because we've got a lot of different obligations with clients around the world, and we're deliberately having a conversation about vacation even though. These new projects are starting because we need to be rested and ready to do our best.
To me, this is also a big part of facing adversity is being prepared, is being, uh, uh, not just stuck in today, but actually starting to look over the horizon line and thinking about tomorrow. Absolutely
Mark Peasron-Freeland: correct. You know, your, your insight last week was very focused on, um, creating a skeleton or a formation or a foundation of a proposal.
Art, you've had a meeting with a client a week before the delivery, and you're right, this is very, very reflected, I think in even what Adam's saying, and I do like the practice
Mike Parsons: of.
Mark Peasron-Freeland: Looking at the agenda at the first and last thing you do in the day. For me, that, and that speaks quite significantly because it's very similar to this concept of read ahead.
If you, let's say you're in an exam,
Mike Parsons: you read it
Mark Peasron-Freeland: and your brain works that ground and therefore you are prepared. When you get to question number 10. I think the same is true when you're looking at your calendar or your to do list or your emails and you're thinking, okay, well I know this is coming up.
That's okay. At least I am aware of it. I think awareness is, for me, at least something that is a very, very, uh, tangible, uh. Thing that makes me anxious, the fear of the unknown, but actually when you start to plan out your weeks and your days and you know when you're going to be attacking certain projects or certain things, certain obligations, it is a relief because you know,
Mike Parsons: Oh yeah, time,
Mark Peasron-Freeland: time blocking.
As we've
Mike Parsons: talked about. Oh, you're so right. Like, so much anxiety comes from unknown outcomes or not really knowing the problem. So, you know, I do my best to attack problems with like fearlessly, uh, just to go right at them because you, once you break them down into the component parts, that's sort of satisfy, and then you can start working your way towards a solution.
But what, uh. Gangbuster first half of the show, Mark. We know that facing adversity is step one. Then you build the resilience. And the back of that, step three is you can find the joy, the happiness, and the fulfillment, and it's a tangible, right? Um, and you know, by helping others, you're helping yourself.
And when you find yourself in that moment of crisis, don't freeze up. Frame the crisis as an opportunity to be excited to be creative in how you get to the solution. Um, I think already Adam has given us a lot, but before we get into the second half of the show, which is all about leadership and, um, you know, thriving amongst the people around you, Mark, if people are dead curious on the other two.
Adam Grant shows, where should they go? Defined our show notes and all our goodies.
Mark Peasron-Freeland: We've got show notes, we've got transcriptions, and we've got useful hyperlinks to various different platforms. All on. Www dot moonshots dot I O you'll find all of our archive shows all 76 soon 77 when once they show goes up, as well as lots and lots.
Like I say, of different links. We had the culture deck from Netflix. Last week we had how you could identify original thinking from Adam Grant site, and there's a couple of links that I think I'll put up from, uh, Adam's option B site as well. Some great strategies to build everyday resilience that I'll put up in the show notes as well.
Moonshots.
Mike Parsons: I O is the place to be when you think and moonshots. And now we find ourselves taking a turn, having a bit of a change of pace, because now we're really going to get into this idea of, uh, what a resilient leader. Really looks like, um, how they actually work. So we're going to hear from the man himself, Adam Grant, on what it takes to become a resilient leader.
Adam Grant: One of the things that I've watched a few leaders at Facebook do
Mike Parsons: is they actually share their performance
Adam Grant: reviews
Mike Parsons: openly. So Carolyn Everson
Adam Grant: works in marketing and sales. I could not believe that she did this. She gets a performance review from her boss that tells her all the things that she could be doing better.
She shares it with all 2,400 people under her, and she wants people to know that she's working to get better. She wants them to know what she's working on so that they can give her relevant feedback and also point out her blind spots. Um, and she also wants to create a culture where it's safe to admit that you're not
Mike Parsons: perfect.
Adam Grant: I would love to see more leaders do that because you get hard feedback then every day. And the best way to build your resilience is to get in the habit of saying, you know what? I am struggling every single day and I'm still getting through it and improving,
Mark Peasron-Freeland: working to get better. What a great technique at showing the culture within the business.
You know, this authenticity and transparency that exists,
Mike Parsons: it's really quite
Mark Peasron-Freeland: empowering to a certain degree. You know, it's, she's receiving this feedback, this constructive criticism, and saying to the rest of the business, 2,400 people. Hey guys, it's okay to not be perfect. We don't expect everybody here to be perfect.
Even I myself, these are the comments that I've received and I'm using this to see those blind spots, but also show how I can begin improving. You know, there might be a lot of people who also relate to some of these points, and that's okay. I love this openness.
Mike Parsons: I have to say, my. Just like, take a moment, Carolyn Everson, head of sales and marketing at Facebook, 2,400 people in her team shares her performance review unredacted to the whole organization.
I have never, ever seen something like that, that is pretty damn brave. Uh, it makes me feel totally inadequate. Like, you know, Oh my, Oh my God. Mike, you're not even close to this. Um. Wow. I mean, that is just radical candor and transparency and openness. Mmm. Yeah. Wow. What do you think, what do you think gave her like, take me through Carolyn's mind.
The first time she did it, what do you think she was thinking? Okay, I know there's some negative stuff in here. I'm going to share it with the team because
Mark Peasron-Freeland: mutual resilience. You know, going back to, you know, a couple of clips from Adam Grant. I think what Carol said is that this resilience does come from, uh, it being a team sport.
When you can look around and, you know, maybe you're in the locker room, maybe one of your, um, trainers is giving some feedback to another individual. That's still pretty empowering because even though they have received. That criticism, you can reflect on it, you can listen on it, but also you can empathize with the individual receiving it.
Maybe you're thinking, Whoa, lucky I got away with it,
Mike Parsons: maybe,
Mark Peasron-Freeland: but for me, I think it's this mutual sharing, this opportunity of saying, right, I get performance review once a year, twice a year. Maybe. I have a often it is, but I can show my team. That it is okay to have, you know, maybe the odd speed bump here and there, the old failing and I don't know, I just feel like it's a really interesting cultural thing to do.
I mean, Mike, you say that. Yeah. Wow. This is an incredibly brave thing to do. What do you think would be the stopper for you to, to do the same.
Mike Parsons: Yeah, I mean, to be honest, until we had sourced this clip, I'd never even thought of doing this. Yeah. I mean, I mean, that's how radical this thought is and how exciting it is.
Um, I mean, I've hardly really processed it in that. What I really like about what you said is it's building collective resilience. This is a great example of the earlier clip where it's like, it's a team sport. We're all in it together, and I think it. I think what it does is it transforms people in a team to know that we're all trying to be our best selves and we're all working on it, and the the leader is not.
Outside of that process. They are very much part of that process as well. And I think that's so powerful. I mean, it's a really exciting space to be in is when you can actually start talking about areas of improvement so openly and so candidly. But what's even better about Adam Grant is that he pushes us even further, uh, in thinking about with whom we can seek advice from and who we can share our challenges with.
So let's. Have a listen now to Adam Grant talking about advice for raising resilient kids.
Adam Grant: I think parents have always cared about resilience for their kids, but we have more over protective parents now than we ever did in the past.
We have parents who, you know, are kind of hovering around like helicopters. We have parents who raise their kids in bubbles. We have parents who make sure that their kids get a trophy for every single thing that they do. And I think because of that, a lot of kids are actually sheltered. From some of the setbacks that might actually help them practice the skills of resilience.
And one of the things as a parent that, that I found really powerful about this is when I'm going through a difficulty, I have started asking my kids for advice. Actually asking them, well, what would you do in a situation like this? Allows them to feel like I trust their judgment. It can normalize struggle for our kids and show them, look, everybody has setbacks and everybody faces adversity.
My wife and I have three kids. Our daughters are nine and six, and our son is three. I was preparing for a big speech and I was a little bit nervous, and I went to one of our daughters and I said, what should I do? And, and she said, well, the first thing you should do is you should think about the times when you were nervous before.
And it went really well. And that will kind of reassure you. And then you should also find somebody in the audience who's smiling and to, you know, kind of gives you a little bit of encouragement and you should look at that person. And so a few weeks later she had a school play to be in and she was a little nervous.
And instead of me saying, Oh, here, I know the answer.
Mike Parsons: I said, well, what, what,
Adam Grant: what did you tell me to do? And I was in that situation. She remembered right away. And she was really excited for the school of play and yeah, I even saw her kind of looking for the person in the audience who was beaming, that she could connect with.
Every kid faces adversity. In some cases
Mike Parsons: it's serious,
Adam Grant: but there's also the minor setbacks that are part of every kid's life failing a test for getting lines of school play, being rejected socially. They need the strength to be able to face them and say, look, I can get through this. And even be able to learn
Mike Parsons: from that situation.
Adam Grant: The more that we can equip our kids to face difficulties and bounce back, not just to where they were before, but stronger, the better their lives will end up being.
Mark Peasron-Freeland: It's, it's a very sweet clip as well, isn't it? I think there's, there's a very,
Mike Parsons: uh,
Mark Peasron-Freeland: key insight that, that comes through for me. Um, which is how Adam.
Asks his daughter for a little bit of advice and then uses it as an opportunity to, um, encourage her when she has self find something a little bit. Anxious and a little bit stressful. Not only was her point of view to Adam very fresh. Um, and you know, I love this. There's this great technique of finding someone in the audience who's smiling to encourage you, but it's also, it works the other way around.
And I think, again, this is another good demonstration of this collective resilience that again, the previous clip was talking about as well as one earlier, which is when you do. Open up about stresses that you might be experiencing or challenges that you might be facing and ask for other points of view or fresh eyes even on some of the work that you might be doing.
Find a great encouragement and strength. Coming from others. And this is really something that has come through, particularly in this book, which is this mutual or group connection that can be created in times of adversity. And by joining together, whether it's with your, uh, 200, 2000, 400 employees, or whether it's your, your children, or whether it's your colleagues like you and I, it is that moment of.
Trying to come together at moments of stress in order to leave it much, much stronger. What do you think,
Mike Parsons: Mike? I think it's, again, it's a really interesting one. I mean, I, as a, as a father, I try very much, uh, to build resilience and fortitude in my son. Um, you know, he, he has an incredibly demanding school life.
Um, and, um. The one thing I just went from Adam Grant is I can be more deliberate in asking him for, for tips and advice for myself, rather than always, you know, dad with all his wisdom, with all these moonshot wisdom. And that's pretty hilarious. So I'm, I'm having all sorts of breakthroughs in the back half of the show.
Him, um. No, I think it's, it is bang on. It's a team sport and I think there's some sort of flywheel effect that he's pointing out that if we're always reminding each other, sometimes he only had to remind his daughter of what she had told him. But sometimes as we fight the good fight, we need that reminder as we go out to try and be the best we can be.
Sometimes we forget some of the very principles we might be telling others. Um, so I think this is, it's just. Fantastic advice. Um, this, I love this idea that resilience is a team sport and we can all help each other. It's fantastic, but, but Adam's work is not done, is it?
Mark Peasron-Freeland: No, it isn't. I mean, just to revisit a couple of the key things we've seen, uh, I think that that clip we've just listened to about his children, it actually culminates a lot of the insights that we've seen throughout the show so far.
You know. Challenges come in all shapes and sizes, whether it's forgetting your lines or your school play, whether it's a big pitch or a workshop coming up, or whether it's, you know, uh, Mark and Mike prepping for the next episode of moonshots. You know, these are all opportunities that, uh, can often present themselves as obstacles, but actually it's always an opportunity, like we've said already, an opportunity to grow and an opportunity to.
Get excited and make the most of that opportunity. And I think you'd agree, Mike, that's the behavior that we've seen in all of our moon shops, in all of our innovators, isn't it?
Mike Parsons: I believe resilience is, is massive. Lady Gaga, uh, Oprah Winfrey, uh, just, I mean, the list goes on and on and on. The,
Mark Peasron-Freeland: the, um.
Mike Parsons: I think what happens is when you're building your resistance, um, I think it sets you up. On a platform where once you see it work a few times that you've actually been over to overcome adversity, that you're actually building resilience.
It's like the gym or like any athletic sport. Once you see your body starting to get quite strong and you're like, dang this, this, this exercise and working out are really starting to pay dividends, then. That's the reinforcement to go the next level. And I think this next and final clip from Adam is really about us going to the next level.
And it really comes in the resilience to have the right conversations and to seek out, you know, the right arguments, the right feedback, the right conversations. So let's have a listen to our last and final clip of Adam Grant talking about how to give feedback so people can hear that you're really.
Trying to help
Adam Grant: ever. The study not long ago, which showed that highly creative adults grew up in families where their parents argued more, not only argued more, but argued in front of their children, which as a dad, I just thought it was something you're never supposed to do. And yet the more I read about this research, the more I realized that if you never disagree in front of your kids, they think there's one right answer to everything.
Whereas if they see, you argue, they realize there might be multiple perspectives on a problem and they have to learn to think for themselves. It's not how often parents argue that affects kids' wellbeing. It's how constructively they argue.
There are few rules for for good arguing that I like to follow. One is to argue like you're right, but listen like you're wrong. Instead of arguing to win, you can argue to learn and then you have to acknowledge when your, your opponent has made a good point. I think most of us are terrible at hearing criticism.
Think about what happens to you physically. Your shoulders start to tense. Your body tightens up, your heart races, and you just feel like you're, you're being physically attacked. There's an experiment I love about how to give criticism so that other people really hear it and it only takes about 19 words.
I'm giving you these comments because I have very high expectations of you and I'm confident that you can reach them. It changes the conversation. Instead of saying, Oh no, this person's about to attack me. The person receiving the feedback says, Oh. This person is trying to help me. I spent a lot of time working with Cheryl Sandberg, the COO of Facebook, and I've learned a lot from watching her lead.
One of the things that Cheryl Sandberg noticed was that as she climbed up the hierarchy in her career, people stopped giving her negative feedback. Cheryl's obsessed with feedback. In fact, she has been told that she asked for too much feedback as a point of feedback, and one of the things that I've watched her do in meetings is she'll open a meeting by giving herself negative feedback out loud, saying something like.
I know I talked too much in meetings and I'm trying to work on that. The other thing she often does is open a meeting and go through the agenda and then go around the room and ask for every single person to give their viewpoint before she shares hers so that people aren't catering. You know, their, their opinion to what they think the boss wants to hear.
When I was 26 I was barely out of grad school and I got signed up to teach a half day class on motivation and after I committed, I found out it was going to be generals and colonels in the U S air force. I was half their age. They look like they're right out of the movie top gun. I walked in and I felt like I had to establish my credentials.
You know why I was qualified to teach the class and I delivered the class. I can tell it was not going well, and when I read the feedback forms afterward, it was even worse than I had feared. There was one guy who wrote that there was more knowledge in the audience than on the podium. There was another who said, I gained nothing from the session, but I trust the instructor gained useful insight.
It was like a dagger to the heart and I wanted to quit. But I'd already signed up to do a second session. I shifted my approach and I walked in and I said, I know what you're all thinking right now. What can I possibly learn from a professor who's 12 years old? Then I heard a Colonel pipe up, his code name was Hawk and he said, no, no.
That's way off base. I'm pretty sure you're 13. And after that I delivered basically a carbon copy of the same material from before, but the feedback forms were night and day different. And I think what I learned from that was sometimes acknowledging our weaknesses, uh, you know, sort of admitting our limitations can actually make us stronger.
Mark Peasron-Freeland: Hm. That's a good, you know, it's a classic moonshot clip. There
Mike Parsons: is so much,
Mark Peasron-Freeland: so much to delve into. Um, and it's a great way, I think, to, to, to end. You know, episode 77 on Adam Grant. For me, what I really, really take from what Adam's saying here is seeing everything from multiple perspectives, no matter how much prep you can do.
Obviously Adam would have prepared for that talk that he was, he was giving to the carnivals. There's still occasionally going be, um, moments when you'll either receive some challenging comments or, or even pushback or, or real criticism. And I think as we've learned from this entire episode. You've got to view that as an opportunity to learn.
Don't take it on. Don't take it to heart and decide to quit because that isn't necessarily the, the innovator or the moonshot personality that, you know, we've been talking about. Instead of Adam saying he came back stronger, he came back with a different approach. He came back a little bit more honestly, and like he was saying, you know, listening like he was wrong and it made him better.
And it's a great demonstration of learning from a real, real adverse and negative moment and coming out of it stronger.
Mike Parsons: It does, doesn't it? And I think like, could you imagine trying to face up for a second day after everyone had given such poor feedback?
Air force command is, Oh my Lord, but I love this thing. I think what it was, now you have to help me here, Mark. I may have written it down wrong. Was it argue like you're right, listen, like you're wrong.
Mark Peasron-Freeland: Correct. Argue like you're right. Have that conviction. Listen to why you're wrong. Have the, um, the disability on yourself.
Humility. Exactly. To know. I'll actually know you. You could be right. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe subjectivity is getting in the way of me seeing the big picture.
Mike Parsons: Yeah. That's super powerful. Now. So the question is, uh, was the crisis clip or the, that final clip, which one was the mega clip of today? Which one pack the most punch or
Mark Peasron-Freeland: actually that's a pretty tough one.
I think. Uh,
Mike Parsons: for many computer or,
Mark Peasron-Freeland: I think it's got to be a draw. I think it's got to be a draw. I mean, the crisis clip. So that's number three. Halfway through. I, I get a lot from that and encourages me to, you know, be my best self. Don't limit your delivery. Don't put in all the work and then struggle at the last hurdle because of anxiety or nerves.
It's the easiest way for an idea to come across. You know, weaker than, than you've probably put into it. Um, you know, you don't get, see Adam spending a couple of years doing lots and lots of research and then not being able to communicate it at that final moment. Obviously he's well versed in it, but for me, turning a challenge into an opportunity and to get excitement from anxiety, I don't know.
That's a pretty strong lesson there. It is.
Mike Parsons: It is. And look, no matter how you cut it, we have learned to give and take. We've learned how to think originally and now we've learnt how to face adversity and build resilience. What. A series from Adam Grant, what a show this was as we learned that on the other side of resilience is joy, happiness, and contentment.
But she can only get there through understanding this is a team sport, and when those moments start to hit, you have to. Not phrased, that's for sure what you don't do, but you actually have to reframe things. And that a crisis is an opportunity to get excited about a creative new approach to any sort of challenge.
And if you do that, you can actually really start the ball rolling. And when you do, you'll be ready to support others, even take feedback from your peers and from your kids. Um, and that to me is such a wonderful gift and I think really leads to you. Contributing to the rise and to others thriving all around you.
I mean, Mark, did you expect so much from one author? Uh, what a,
Mark Peasron-Freeland: what a series, you know? Thank you, Melania Bordeaux for your great recommendation. I know, Mike, you've, you've obviously encountered Adam. For me. It was a fantastic journey through all of Adam's work, so thanks to to Adam and all his research team, of course, as well as well as Cheryl for this episode.
Mike Parsons: Fantastic. Absolutely. So there you go. That brings us to the end of the Adam Grant series. It has been, as they say, down under an absolute Cracker. Uh, it's really been wonderful and thank you to you, Mark, and thank you to all our listeners for coming on the Adam Grant journey. But there's plenty more gas in the tank.
There's a lot more left. From the team here at moonshots because before we go into the world of Gary V, we have decided to supplement, to augment, to have a little entre mall. Between that, we are going to go inspired by Michael Jordan and the last dance, we're going to go deep on Michael Jordan. Then Serena Williams, and then lastly, Joe Rogan, and then we will catapult ourselves back into the world of jab, jab, right hook, Gary fender.
Chuck, there is so much learning ahead for all of us. Mark. Thank you. Are you energized? Are you ready to crush your day?
Mark Peasron-Freeland: Woo. I am totally energized. I'm ready for it. Let's go.
Mike Parsons: Nice. I'm pretty damn ready myself. So thank you again, Mark. Thank you to all our listeners for joining us on the final part of the Adam Grant series here on the show.
It's been wonderful. Thank you to all of the contributions from you all around the world. Uh, it really does make this show special, so thank you to all of you. Once again, this is the moonshots podcast that's a wrap.