James Clear
EPISODE 85
In Episode 85, we are digging into James Clear one of the world’s leading experts on habit formation, to learn how to maximise our time, and form positive habits.
Known for his ability to distill complex topics into simple behaviors that can be easily applied to daily life and work. His work has appeared in Entrepreneur magazine, Time magazine, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal and on CBS This Morning.
He wrote the New York Times bestseller, Atomic Habits (buy on Amazon), a guide for making good habits inevitable and bad habits impossible. Atomic Habits, offers a framework for getting 1 percent better every day. It's the ultimate guide on how to design a system where good habits emerge naturally and unwanted habits fade away.
SHOW OUTLINE
INTRO
What’s the deal with habits
Why habits are so important (1m34)
BEHAVIOUR AND MINDSET CHANGE
Stimulate your mind and body
Exercise and read (54s)
How to break the bad habits
Bad habits and how to deal with them (2m43)
Put your time into becoming an expert through practice
Experience equals expertise (49s)
Change the game to stay stimulated
Keep challenging yourself (1m07)
STUDIES AND EXPERIMENTS
An exercise in keeping control through planning ahead
Set the intention to make a change (2m39)
What’s drives the results in business, goals, or the system?
Create systems rather than goals (2m27)
OUTROS
How can we develop new habits today?
How long does it take to develop new habits (1m35)
TRANSCRIPT
Hello and welcome to the moonshots podcast. It is a very atomic 85. I’m your cohost Mike Parsons and as always, I'm joined by mr. Atonic himself. Mr. Mark Pearson Freeland. Good morning, Mark. Good morning, Mike. What a beautifully. Wintery Sydney day. It's the perfect day to get ourselves into creating new habits, new intentions, new systems, same place I'm excited for today.
How are you feeling? Well, I'm, I'm just love. I mean, we, uh, we are talking about a subject today that is very dear and close to my heart Mark. So yeah, don't hold back any further. Why don't you share with our audience who we're going to be diving into what [00:01:00] Tommy CLI amazing author. Well, we meet today. The atomic author (Buy on Amazon), an innovator of episode 85 is none other than mr.
James clear, who is one of the leading experts around the world on formation of habits. He's very, very good at sending those complex and sometimes difficult to understand behaviors and goals. Write down into really simple. Actionable day to day tips and you're right. Mike wealth of information. We can learn from mr.
Claire. And I can't wait to get into the show. Are you, you know, James? Well, you've, you've read a number of his books. You, uh, I know that there's a lot of tips that you've actually said in the past, in our show that I think coming from some of James's work. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, more than anything, um, you know, I discovered this idea of habit formation, um, and [00:02:00] this idea of incremental gains every single day.
Um, so in my, in my to do list, um, every single day I have a ton of daily recurring, uh, rituals and habits that I've picked up over the years that. I try to kind of collect and curate together to try and be just a little bit yeah. Better every single day. And I'll tell you why. I think James Clear and his book, atomic habits is so important and so relevant, particularly today, as we find ourselves in a sort of, you know, quarantine work from home, kind of new normal, I think.
What James clears thinking will do for us in this show is demonstrate that we don't have to feel this incredible burden when we have an ambitious goal, um, as, uh, is the wisdom. You break it down into small parts, [00:03:00] um, and you work on it incrementally. Come compounding your effort every single day. And I love this idea.
It has been really transformative, uh, for me, uh, in trying to, to tackle my goals, my hopes, my aspirations of myself, and to be as good as I damn well can be. And that's what I think it's installed for all of our listeners today. You and I are going to break down a truly. Ah, such an articulate author. Who's got such a clear line of thinking.
I truly believe he's packaged his work as good as Simon Sinek throughout the show today, our listeners, uh, in for a bevy of tips around mindset, uh, behavior and habits creation, we're going to delve into some of the data behind these insights. And understand the importance and the role that habit design can play in our lives.
[00:04:00] Mark. So chocolate block, a lot of good clips today, right? Go away. Wait, you've got me going. I can't wait to hear, not only from James, but I want to hear more about the little tips and tricks that you do already. You've sparked my imagination as to what I can put into my life. You know, beyond episode 85.
So I'm ready to get started. Mike, where are we going to, where are we going to begin with James clear? Well, I think it's important that we should mention that this is part of our new habits series of which VIM Hoff came with a very icy recommendation of a cold shower. And, um, if you will, if that was the awakening, James clear brings us into.
The sunny bidder the day after the cold icy start from VIM half, we are learning all about, uh, behaviors and habits. And we've got plenty of other good clips, not only for this show, but we will be, um, rounding out the [00:05:00] habit design series, uh, with a couple of really interesting guys, Charles Duhigg with the power of habit and William H McRaven make your bed.
So there's a lot, lot more to come. And before we hit our lovely global audience, but the first clip Mark, we should tell them if they want to go and dig up some of the archive, where would you have them go? I'd suggest creating a new habit, a daily reminder for all of our listeners to go and check out www.moonshots.io.
You'll find all 84 cave shows available there. We've got Simon Sineck. We've got. Cal Newport. We've got Jim Collins, we've got Brenae Brown. The list goes on. You've got transcripts for a lot of the shows, all of our show notes, as well as a tease of who we're going to be covering in the coming weeks. And I'll tell you what, we've got some pretty big shows lined up.
I'm pretty excited. We do indeed, but less. [00:06:00] Put our attentions. Let's go deep. Let's go atomic. And let's start with James clear, really getting to the heart of things and telling us why habits are so important. Each behavior cast a vote for the type of person that you want to become. And if you cast enough votes for that type of identity, he started to believe that about yourself, right?
Like if you go to church for 20 years, you believe that you're religious. He studied Spanish every Tuesday for 30 minutes, he believed that you were studious. Um, so. And that way your habits provide evidence of your desired identity. And I think that that is probably the ultimate reason that habits are so important.
It's true. Like how it's gonna help you earn more money or be more productive or lose weight. Um, and all that stuff is great. But in addition, and to the external results that have us provide, they also shape your sense of self. They like are the, the engine or the Avenue through which you learn to believe things about yourself.
Like sometimes people will say stuff like fake it till you make it, but fake it till you make it [00:07:00] is asking yourself to believe something without evidence for it. And you can do that for a little while. You can do it for a day or a week, but eventually, I mean, there's a word for beliefs that don't have evidence behind the delusion, right.
And if you're diluting yourself, then eventually you give up on that. But the power of doing a better habit each day, or casting one little vote for that. Type of person is that now you have evidence to root your belief in. Yeah. So now I've done six months. Yeah. Right. I mean, now you have a lot of things, evidence that you're a podcaster or a good interviewer, you know, like you do this over and over again, each time you cast a vote for believing out about yourself and you, don't just, you aren't delusional believing that you're a good interviewer as you've shown up and done it hundreds of times.
Right. Um, and so I think that that's true for any habit, large or small that they provide evidence of the desired identity or the type of person that you are. Starting the show with a great revealing clip, defining what is a habit for me? I like James is referenced to the fake it till you make [00:08:00] it, uh, added.
I think we've all, we're all familiar with that, but what James is calling out here, which for me is, is that, um, empowerment rather than faking it, which ultimately is. Fake instead, take ownership yourself and start to believe in what you're trying to do. You know, reminds me a little bit of Mark Cuban telling us about passion and how you don't necessarily go out and be disappointed if you haven't reached your dream job instead, make what you're doing right now.
That passion. And I think I'm starting to see that little bit of, uh, uh, symbiosis, I think with, with what James clear is saying here, which is, you know, give yourself the evidence that you can make it by creating that new positive habit. He's here to build on that. He's really. Connecting is that the [00:09:00] behavior supports the belief, which supports the behavior, which so which supports the belief.
You get this compounding where you keep repeating positive behaviors that give you a more positive belief in yourself. I mean, it's just the classic one. When you know, you should go to the gym, you're a bit tired, but you go and you feel good after. Yes, you've got that. Post-workout buzz going, but somewhere deep inside us, we somehow prove to ourselves.
We are the person we thought where we are. We did put in the effort and we can joy the reward. I saw. I think there's a really powerful thing. Even if you just say you're starting on a workout routine, you want to get a bit healthy and you just say, I'm going to walk for 10 minutes a day. Um, knowing that you did that.
Supports the belief that you can and want to be a healthy person. And [00:10:00] then, you know what, and this is so good. What we're going to discover over the rest of the show is this becomes quite a continuous journey. And maybe the following week, you I'm going to work for 11 minutes or maybe 12 minutes and do this 1% better every day.
Every week, time after time, and the results can be so transformative. And what's so beautiful about this. Mark is it's just breaking down such big lofty ambitions goals and just making it a practical thing you can do today. And I think that is just a taste of what's to come, uh, throughout the show where we've got a lot of mindset, a lot of behavior tips getting into some of the data, some are some of their research.
So if you're out there listening, you should dig into this because it is, um, just. [00:11:00] There is just so much good stuff. Yeah. I'm a big James clear fan and I'm hoping that we can learn out loud together no matter where you are around the world. And yeah, we, we keep having new listeners joining us from all around the world.
We have three new countries that have started tuning into the show, getting us onto the top hundred chats. What global United nations are we building? Who do we welcome to the show today? This week where welcoming in with open arms, all of our listeners from Mexico, Austria, and Slovakia. Thank you so much for listening to it.
We really, really love seeing your different cities and countries that appearing on our. A map every week, every couple of days. And it's only down to you, our listeners at spreading the word, sharing the episodes, but also [00:12:00] leaving us a friendly rating or review or getting in touch with us. We'd love to hear more about.
And let's be honest. We have to put the challenge out to our listeners. We have some of the most amazing listeners around the world with crazy, crazy handles and use the tags. I think beef bull yard. He, I mean, he's, he's in the clear lead, but are there any other great user names, uh, from all the recent feedback that we've had that stick in your mind?
Mark? For me, it was a, a very, a lovely listener from Bhutan, a dragon on wheels. He does drag it on wheels. He gets my, uh, my vote personally. Well, I know what gets my vote is, uh, this intersection between mind and body. So no matter whether you're in Mexico, Austria Slovakia or anywhere on this wonderful planet.
Let's dive into the world of author James [00:13:00] clear and he's book atomic habits. Let's give a nod to the start of our previous show them half. Let's see about one of my absolute favorite topics, which is the relationship between mind and body. I think there are a few core habits that are going to serve everybody and certainly served me well.
So exercises huge one. I don't do it daily, but I exercise. I train four times a week. I feel like if I didn't exercise, I don't know that I would be an entrepreneur. Like, I don't know if I could handle the psychological roller coaster without the physical outlet. You have the release. You probably feel that as like an app fleet too, you know, like for being an athlete for so many years, I feel like I need to push myself physically.
In addition to mentally, it is just mental. It doesn't. Do it for me, I need to have a physical outlet. So exercise is one. The other, the ultimate meta habit is reading because if you build a habit of reading, you can solve pretty much any other problem. You know, you want to learn how to be a better podcast, or you can read about that.
You want to learn how to meditate. You can read about that. You want to learn how to make more [00:14:00] money. You can read about that. Um, and so what you need is to develop a habit of reading and then whatever problem you're facing at the time, you can, you have a method for solving that. The interconnectedness, the formula, the equation of physical plus mental.
I, it reminds me when I was growing up, um, where instead of forcing yourself to revise, to read books, to write essays, and it's still true in my career and work life at the moment, forcing myself to write maybe pitches or consider products. You've got to. Balance that with a physical, uh, exercise or, Oh, wait, could be in a number of different ways, but almost that it kind of exhausts.
You've got to put everything of your mind into a product, into a bit of work into a deliverable, but at the same time, balance that with focusing your body. Ad, you know, getting rid of that energy as [00:15:00] well and feels very, um, appropriate to parrot, you know, James Clare's book, along with him as you point out because whim was very focused on body mind, and James is giving us these good tips on creating new habits.
It feels like a great, great little pair here. Hmm, my best say that, that the thing about exercise is it, um, directly relates to how you think like, don't you have the feeling, mind that after you we've done some really good aerobic exercise, don't you just feel, feel more clearheaded. Well, That brings me back to last week's episode.
You said after a good cold shower, you have this feeling of electricity running through your body. And for me, I get that when I've exercised, as I'm sure a lot of our listeners do when you've been for a long run or you've done some [00:16:00] great hot yoga or some stretching, even you've got all that blood moving around your body and.
I believe that that's what stimulates your brain into about problems, more finding good solutions. And I personally, I don't know about you, Mike, but I don't think I'm at my best when I haven't exercised in the morning. Totally. I totally agree. Yeah. Do you get grumpy when you don't exercise in the morning?
Like by lunchtime, you just get grumpy. Yeah. I actually feel pretty sluggish. If anything, I feel more tired in the morning or during the day when I haven't reached out. Yes, I do too. So at a minimum, for me, it would be about. Trying to fit in 20 minutes of stretching and using the roller, if I can, for whatever reason, exercise, uh, due to time constraints.
But for me, the other [00:17:00] thing, apart from exercise, giving you a clear mind, so you can think better, uh, you can read more. I think the other big thing is I feel that it is a key component. To dealing with the stress of meeting deadlines, solving complexity, working in large teams, across different countries.
To me, it's also shop a mind, but like I'm just more Chilmark. Yeah, well, anxiety, stress. Those are all of energy on that. You know, you haven't burned the way that I like to think about it. It's almost like you're simmering down a pot of, you know, sauce when you were putting it on the stove for awhile. It's sort of allows to evaporate off for me.
I think of my body in a. In a similar way, uh, listeners, please bear with me. As I tried to explain what I mean, if I haven't been on, uh, [00:18:00] the, the burn, so to speak, if I haven't been burning energy through exercise, whether it's stretching or running or whatever, um, I feel like I'm still full of that.
Negative energy or anxiety, stress, feelings of being overwhelmed. And I totally agree for me. Exercise is the way to expel that, to put it into positive. Yeah. I love this idea that you you're talking about, like switching bad energy to good energy and just burning it, simmering off that bad energy and, um, The great thing about James clears.
He's got thoughts on how to actually attack and go after bad habits. And, you know, the crazy thing is, um, you know, he, he talks about breaking bad habits and I'm, I'm so, so obsessed with positive habits that I haven't spent nearly enough time thinking about bad habits. So let's jump in to author James clear and finding out about [00:19:00] bad habits and how we can deal with them.
We actually have like three options for breaking bad habits. So the first option is to reduce exposure. Um, so something like, you know, if you want to stop spending so much money on electronics, then don't follow all the latest tech review blogs, you know, like your, or if you want to lose weight, don't follow a bunch of food bloggers on Instagram.
Um, you're constantly being triggered by that and having to like, overcome that now that doesn't always, but if you can cut a habit off at the source, then a lot of the time, like the craving won't arise naturally. So at atomic habits in the book, I talk a little bit about this woman who she smoked while she was in college.
And she would always smoke while riding horses with a friend. And so eventually at some point she quit smoking and she's also stopped seeing her, like seeing that friend and graduated in college and so on. Wasn't riding horses. And then like 10 years later, She got back on a horse for the first time and suddenly craved a cigarette.
And, um, she was like, what is going on here? And your habits are often tied to a context they're tied to a situation or some kind of cue. And [00:20:00] so if you can reduce exposure to that cue, then in many cases, the craving won't arise. So that's the first option for bringing about habit. The second option, which kind of sucks, but is like to sit with the craving long enough to like, let this wave a desire.
Ride itself out. And so you basically just resist temptation. Um, it's possible. It's easier if, um, if your hand is forced, if you use what I call amendment device. So yeah. Brief story real quick, Victor Hugo, um, famous author who were like hunchback Notredame and a bunch of other things. Well, When he got the book deal for a hunchback of Notre Dame, he just procrastinated for like a year.
He hosts a bunch of house parties as friends over. He went traveling for a little while. Yeah. He'd be like, you got the book deal. He did nothing, no work. And eventually his publisher got pissed off. They were like, you know, can you please like actually work on this? And so they set this ultimatum for him and I said, uh, We're going to, we're going to cancel the book in six months if you don't have it done by then.
And so he, um, he got his [00:21:00] assistant to come in and put all his clothes into a chest and they locked him up and took them out of the house. And the only thing he was left with was like this, the shawl, this like large robe. So basically he had no clothes that were suitable for hosting guests or for leaving the house or like going on trips or anything else.
So more or less put himself on house arrest. Um, And what ended up happening was each time procrastination arose. He was able to kind of sit with that feeling and let it ride because he didn't really have many other options, so they can get back to work on the book. And it ended up working. He got the book done like two weeks early, but things like is that where you can lock in your future action.
And it becomes really hard to go to your friend's party or go out to, you know, traveled to a different place or whatever. Um, just because you don't have the option, if you can increase friction, then sometimes you can sit with the craving of a bad habit and let it ride out. I I you're right. Going back to your point before that last clip mic, it's quite confronting when we think about our bad habits, because they can be anything from having your friends around to [00:22:00] regularly, or, you know, not focusing on the problem for enough time and being distracted.
I mean, I like what James Claire's telling us here in terms of addressing them. But it's, it's sort of a challenge to actually figure out what they are. Yeah. So, so my first reaction to that clip is I saw it. I really see myself, um, doing things like I will block out a morning. Um, Together with you or an evening with one of the team in Europe, if we've got a deliverable coming up and I feel like, really need to get set into something I'm like, I'll just cancel everything and just date.
And this idea of protecting myself from interruption. Um, Locking myself away in the study to produce work when required is definitely a habit [00:23:00] that I've created in order to avoid getting distracted or whatever. But let's try and go a little bit deeper. Uh, let's think about how we work. Um, And I've, I've not really done the exercise of thinking about something that I did I do at work, which is a bad habit, something that is, um, calling, uh, calling myself out.
And I mean, blown away when James Clay was telling that story of the woman getting back on the horse, wasn't that crazy, 10 years later, she hasn't had a cigarette and she gets on a horse. Cravings instantly cue you the context, I mean, to help, um, to help you. Um, yeah, I'll, I'll turn the mic on myself for a second for me when I'm at work.
And I think there's actually bridges a little bit to that first example with the lady on the horse, when I'm in a stressful situation at [00:24:00] work, my bad habit would be to point mental fingers. And I'll think, ah, I feel under pressure. I feel stress whose fault is it? And I think that the behavior that I have is thinking, okay, well it must be so and so, or it must be over there or maybe it's a partner or whatever it might be that that I think is my bad habit.
And that's my initial gut reaction. Yeah, I suffer. I suffer from, from that one. And maybe I'm being too quick to judge, which has been something I've always struggled with. So let's work out this, this, you know, blaming others, judging others by how would we. What would we do if we were to follow James Claire's recommendation?
Cause he, he had some pretty clear, yeah, I liked the context one. So [00:25:00] when we're experiencing a cue or a context, similar to getting back on the horse and for, for my example, it would be in a stressful situation, maybe a deadline is looming or the deliverables aren't quite right. Instead of me pointing a mental finger, I think.
The proactive way of turning that negative energy into a slightly better habit would be okay, well, that's fine. This is where we are. How can I improve it? What can I do now to raise it up a little bit and not in, in that example, uh, star parting with my friends and not writing the hunchback of Notre dam or starting to smoke instead, what's the proactive thing that I can do.
So recognizing that context first step. Yeah. And I think one of the things I try to do with, you know, judgment [00:26:00] and is I really try to say, say, okay, what can I do to change the situation? Um, and something I've mentioned before is I always try and get a kind of like if I was their manager or they coach.
What advice would I give to the person in order to help them, um, as well. And I, I, I think learning these sorts of ways to break bad habits, I think another one would be just before you say and do anything, um, you know, one of the famous, uh, Roman emperors was given the advice of before making a decision, say the alphabet, just to force him not to just, you know, Immediately jumped off into a decision, but forcing them to pause and think, um, it's interesting because I find this quite disruptive and it it's a real note to self to spend more time really asking myself, what am I bad habits?
And you know, how, [00:27:00] how do I start to identify them? And how do I dress? Am I, I think that the boldest and scariest thing would be to ask others much like yourself to say, Hey. What are the bad habits? Come on, hit me, hit me with them. Um, I think that's gotta be. That's gotta to be a good start. Don't you listeners out there.
Maybe if you're feeling inspired by James and empowered by what, what atomic habits has got us learning, feel free to send us a, a very honest email to hello, moonshots.io. We won't call you out. Don't worry. Um, but if you'd like to put it into action and write something down, feel free to get in touch because we'd love to hear from you.
Yeah, thank you. So let's, let's now think about the next step in this process. We've awakened the mind and body we've identified some bad habits, but [00:28:00] now it's kind of starting to move into how can we master this and. What's really interesting about James KA is he points out that experience has I really big role to play in how we build our expertise?
So let's have a listen now, too. Author James clear talking about experience way you develop expertise is by writing about it every week. So I wrote a new article about habits every Monday and Thursday for three years. And that was how I developed the expertise on the topic by writing about research. So here's what I found.
Here's what I tried. Here's what worked, what didn't work. It's a combination of me reading the scientific literature and reading the research and then trying to distill the practical insights from that and testing things out in my own life as a way. Lifts are a travel photographer, a writer, an entrepreneur, what that looks like.
And then the two together, I think you need both, like, I don't want to be some new age version of it, an academic who's in an ivory tower. Just [00:29:00] like theorizing about it. Yes. It's different. What it looks like to put it isn't a practice, right? Like, imagine you're a peak performance coach and you show up a coach like an NBA team.
And these guys are like, dude, you need to on the quarter, if you know what, you're right to see what it's actually like. Hmm, intention and hard work that's air. It's funny that the, the clip ends similar to what you were saying. Mike, about thinking as a manager, as a, as a team or coach, you know, that that's funny that the clip ends like that, actually.
So we'll come back to that. But for me, that glimpse all around. If you've got a clear intention and you're not afraid to work hard when you can achieve expertise. It's that experience putting in the yards, so to speak that gets you into that level. Yeah. And to break it down even further, he's basically doing a test and learn prototype, um, sort of mental model here, which is, you know, read the theory, but then you have to go and apply it.
And I think that, [00:30:00] you know, habits are all uniquely personal. For example, I, uh, I've seen a lot of these habit forming apps and, you know, if we're building a product that kind of calls on some of this, I'll go and play with them. But for me, all I need is a to do list, which is simply a task manager, your to do list.
And I just have recurring daily. To do items in there and that's all I need for habit. For me, others respond well to writing things down. People have positive affirmations. Some people have these. Um, you know, fancy, uh, apps, whatever works is my philosophy, but I think he's challenged to us is go read all the Simon cynics and James clears in the world, but have a deliberate effort to test the ideas in your real life.
So I love that he was writing on Mondays and Thursdays, but he would read the theory and then [00:31:00] test it for a couple of days and come back and write more around that theory and sort of, I think that. Is a very powerful lesson. If you're going to build a habit, read, get some inspiration, but then run all your little mini tests, uh, pilot projects and, you know, tweak away and fine tune and make it iterative.
I think that's the call to action. Don't you? Yeah, totally. I mean, for me, I've taken inspiration from. The way that we use to do it in our work lives. And I've done a similar thing to you. I've set up a daily reminder to myself, to exercise, to write, and actually as an observation, uh, probably ticking off a lot more of the exercise piece, but less so of the writing piece.
So when I say writing, I mean journal, and actually for me, what I've realized is maybe this isn't the best way to do it. I've tested it for a couple of weeks. And I haven't stuck to it. So now what I'm going to be looking [00:32:00] for is maybe there is a different way to inspire or drive my focus around. Yeah.
Yeah. Now what's very powerful about these daily experiences these days, you know, getting into this ritual and habit design of doing it every day is that if you do have. This list written down, I'm just going to do these five things. Every single day, I got a stretch and I do yoga. I'm going to read for half an hour, whatever it is what's really exciting is when you've had a really busy day.
Um, and you just returned to the list. What's very powerful for me is I'll often go to this list and I've been using this practice for years. I go back to the list and go, Oh, I didn't do this. Or I forgot to do this. Or. I can always return to the list to remind me of the daily experiences that I want to have the daily rituals that I want to build.
So it's this ultimate [00:33:00] backup, um, because you can just return to the list. And I think if you really want to be in this for the long term, um, you've got to. Practice it daily and have the right tools that remind you that prompt you, that trigger you to make your habit daily. This is really key because what happens is that you become so addicted to it much later, the exercise in the morning thing, the culture in the morning thing or whatever your ritual is when you don't do it.
You really miss it. And then you realize how much it positively informs your state of mind. And if we want to talk about state of mind, the one thing Mark is Jane's clear, makes the point that this is a longterm game that we're playing, right? Oh, absolutely. And we'll, we'll come onto a great clip. Um, later on, that definitely reinforces that, but it.
What will, what we'll listen into now is James Clair telling us a little bit about [00:34:00] how we can, um, challenge ourselves right now. So similar to what you were just Mike, how do we, uh, change our behaviors day to day and how do we inspire ourselves to new behaviors? So this is, uh, James Clair telling us about how to change the game and stay stimulated.
So occasionally, and this is true for everybody. If you live long enough, life will come for you at some point, right? Like something's going to happen. Um, so occasionally life will stress you, but when life doesn't change challenge you, I think it's important to challenge yourself because otherwise you're just living in this optimal environment, air conditioning, and you know, everything else is super easy.
You can get all the information in the world at your fingertips. You never have to, like, if you think about how crazy just eating is in the modern world. So previously when we lived in tribes, you. You had to expend energy to get calories, um, at a minimum you were forging for berries, but otherwise you probably had to like run something down and kill it, or part of a Groupon or all kinds of other things.
Now you [00:35:00] can get calories without expending. Any, all you have to do is just tap like Uber eats on your phone or something, it'll show up at your door. Um, and you can just sit on the couch, which is of course, like a recipe for poor health, but also just the game has completely changed now. We've transcended a lot of our evolutionary programming and natural, um, situations.
And so you need to be careful about designing that to serve you rather than to work against you, because it can very easily nudge you in the other room. That is so good. Now this is really interesting because this directly relates to VIM Hoff, but this is sort of a new. Emerging idea that we're seeing in the habit design series.
And I really liked this idea. I want to explore more, which is James clear is basically telling us it's actually. Really worth having a healthy tension in your life. It's [00:36:00] um, very good to be challenging yourself, having some stretch goals, making yourself a bit uncomfortable. I loved this analogy of like, you can literally without expand, expanding single calorie, you can order a ton of calories.
Now, if you compare that to the effort the caveman went to in order just to get a few berries or to hunt down some the point here for me, Is what I have this growing awareness of. And I really relate to it is sourcing, um, actually incorporating healthy stretch goals. That challenge you, that make you a bit uncomfortable.
So you're learning. And I think Joe Rogan said it really well embrace the discomfort. And, uh, as, as James clear painted that picture of the zero calorie acquisition of calories, I mean, It's so true, but I'm wondering what is this? Got you thinking on how you might keep challenging yourself. Get [00:37:00] out of the, as James clear would say, get out of the air conditioning for a moment, burn some calories to get some, how do you process this into something you might do to keep challenging yourself?
Man. True challenges. Come in a lot of way, ways, I guess. And I think. You know, similar to that, to the list that I mentioned a minute ago, exercise and writing. I think the writing piece seems for me, at least a little bit uncomfortable because I don't really know what I'm doing. I wouldn't know where to start.
Maybe it's a little bit too personal or revealing, but actually. To use to coin your phrase, the stretch goals. That's exactly what it is. It's learning something new, whether it's something I do personally or something I do during my day to day work, you know, all of these, I love the idea of creating daily goals that make me feel uncomfortable, exercise.
I loved exercising, so I'm happy to take that off most days, but actually [00:38:00] having her have repeating moments of my day, that challenge me. That, that feels pretty exciting, actually uncovered.
Um, you know, I have a, take an uncomfortable conversation off the list or, um, spend 30 minutes learning something really, really hard that you've been putting off, hold yourself accountable to actually finish. Awesome. I think there's really something in simple, Manchez like listened to a new song every day, you know, read one news analysis or opinion piece a day.
Um, just small things you could do every single day to stimulate the, uh, the new to, uh, To get all the atoms moving around as James clear would want. I think this idea of [00:39:00] challenging, keeping yourself really challenged with stretch goals. I mean, obviously one of the things a lot of our listeners might see this in is it's.
The classic thing is when the grandparents or the parents retired and they're not introducing any channel into their life anymore, there will become a bit small. And on the opposite side, when you meet. A retiree who's out there exercising, contributing to society, socializing, the start difference you see in people like that, maybe that's one use case.
I think the other thing is when you see people who've been in roles for years, maybe decades and who are so comfortable that they are almost bored. Right. Um, So I think it's all about trying to find some balance between the healthy stretch goals, you know, and giving your time to yourself to rejuvenate.
Um, if [00:40:00] there was one thing you could start doing each day tomorrow, that would be something new, introduce a little bit of stretch for yourself. What do you think that would be for you if you were to get inspired by James clear? It's a good one. It's a good one. I think. It's got to be current affairs, perhaps.
So staying a little bit more on top of maybe it's politics, maybe it's business ideas, something that's a little bit. Yeah. Um, let's see, I'm, I'm quite ofeh with reading articles that interest me as I'm sure everybody is, but maybe a very, very simple addition to my day that would take maybe less than five minutes is to read a couple of articles from a website that I wouldn't normally go to.
Maybe it's more, maybe it's more political. That seems to me very, very easy to achieve, um, and quite nice to slip into the routine. It's funny you say that because I would like to [00:41:00] read more, uh, business, uh, news and analysis. Um, and my problem is, is that I have a ritual of adding articles to my Instapaper to read later.
And then my Marines Instapaper reading list is like worse than my Netflix watch list. It's just. Chock a block of things that, uh that's. So I'm going to try that too. So, um, while we're busy trying to read up on the affairs of the world, uh, where should all of our wonderful listeners, where should they go?
If they want to tune into our back catalog, uh, connect to our social, get our newsletter, where a nurse, should they go? You want to hear Mike and I talk about some tips and tricks and cover a lot of very interesting innovators and what they've got to teach us head on over to www.moonshots.io for all of our archive shows.
At this point, [00:42:00] you'll find 84 jam packed episodes and how all of them have transcriptions show notes, all sorts of mantras. There's a heap of content online that you'll find. And moonshots.io. Sounds sounds wonderful. So just to set the stage, we've had, um, like powerhouse, um, five clips in a row. They're all about behavior and mindset change.
We've had this awakening between mind and body we've tackled some of those nasty habits. I mean, that story of that woman getting back on a horse 10 years later and craving a cigarette was. Ridiculous. And what we've also discovered is, you know, we've got to practice, we can't just read the theory. We've got to practice it.
And if we do that, we'll be on the way up. And as we're sending, we should never stop. Always keep challenging yourself. Introducing new behaviors, new. Habits who [00:43:00] now we're going to segue into a world of study research and some data and stuff. Great. Um, analysis that James clear has done around habit design.
And what's interesting about James clear is he's very similar to Jim Collins, who we recently did on the show, um, in going to the data, going to the research. And this is, seems to be a big theme. To the best authors that we cover. Doesn't it matter? It really does. Jim Collins, as well as Adam Grant, you know, taking a look at a lot or an eyebrow around.
Exactly. I think I'm getting the impression that we love that don't wait. I love it. When our innovators don't just have a point of view, but they back it up with loads and loads of data. So the next section of the show, we're going to listen to a couple of experiments and studies. At James clear has as a unveiled and looked into to draw some of his insights and comparisons.
[00:44:00] And the first one we're going to check out, it's all about keeping control by planning ahead. So we're going to hear James tell a little bit of a story about how to make sure you set the intention in order to make that change. One of my favorite studies is about exercise and they had three cohorts in this study.
So yeah, the first cohort they said, I just want you to track how often you work out 60 weeks. Right? So that's the, um, standard cohort, the control group second group. So we want you to track off and you exercise, but we're also going to give you a motivation, motivational speech presentation, talking about the benefits of heart health.
Why habits are good for you? The motivated group, right? The third group. They got the same presentation. So they're equally motivated and then they did one thing differently. And that one thing was, they filled out. This sentence is a during the next week, I will partake in at least 20 minutes of vigorous exercise on this day, in this time, at this time in this place, right.
They specifically stated their intention to implement the behavior. So implementation central [00:45:00] here's what happened. First group one out of three of them worked out. Second group motivation did nothing. As soon as they left the researcher's facility, the next day they were motivated. It's like reading a book or watching YouTube or listening to a motivational speaker.
And then you forget all about it 20 minutes later. But the third group, the group that has specific plan for how they were going to implement the behavior. Nine out of 10 of them worked out. So you can increase your odds of success. Two to three X just by having a specific plan. And this is the insight.
Many people think that they lack motivation when, what they really lack is clarity. They think that they need to get more motivated that they need willpower in order to execute on it. If I just felt like writing, if I just felt like meditating, I felt like working out then I would do it. But in fact, they don't have a plan for it.
And so they wake up each day thinking, I wonder if I'll feel. Motivated to write today. Wonderful. Feel motivated to work out today, but instead you can take the decision making out of it by explicitly stating when, where, and how you will implement the habit. It sounds easy to say let's just start a plan.
Let's see, you know, write down exactly what you should do, and then maybe you'll fall through on it. But of course we all [00:46:00] know that there are challenges that arise. It's not quite that easy. So here's a little strategy that I like to use to make sure you can come up with a better plan of action and it's called a failure.
Premortem so the way that it works is you think about the habit, the project, the goal, whatever the most important thing is that you want to work on. Then I want you to imagine fast forward, six months from now, and you failed. And then tell the story of why you failed. What happened? What challenges did you encounter?
What was it that took you off course? Well, I do this with businesses that was called the kill, the company exercise. Cause everybody just sits around and thinks about ways to kill the company the last six months. And once you have all that stuff laid out on the table in front of you, you can start to make better choices about how to develop a plan.
You can start to have if then plan. So not only. Do I want to exercise for 20 minutes on Monday at 5:00 PM. But also if I do not exercise because I have to take my kid to practice or whatever, then Tuesday morning at 7:00 AM, I will go in. Right. You can have ways to adjust for these challenges. Wow, Mike, I believe this [00:47:00] is.
I dunno if we are going to have a formal award for clipper their show, but this one, Oh man, this is this, one's the real deal. Let, let me, let me riff on this one for a bit. I completely see myself in this story that James Clariton simple example, I was running two, two days ago and I realized after 30 minutes of running.
That I hadn't decided before how long I would run for. And then I was like, Oh, well, will I do 45 minutes or an hour? I'm not sure. Um, and what's really interesting is how this kind of put me in a flux because. It's a simple decision, but it was about the intention. Mmm Hmm. And it was really interesting just to be jokey on [00:48:00] going, Oh, having a little running crisis here.
Is it 45 or no? Yeah. But I'll tell you where I really, really see, this is the night before I need to do something to deliver something. I always do it best. I always I'm at my best and get the job done. When I make a clear intention the night before, if I do anything before lunchtime tomorrow, I will deliver X, Y, Z.
And he's the interesting, I noticed a little, uh, side effects because if I really manifest this intention, okay. Writing it down, planning my agenda, whatever it takes. I will wake naturally at an early time, because somehow deep in my subconscious, I have laid this intention. [00:49:00] And so what I notice is when I don't do that is maybe I sleep a little longer or maybe I'll allow other things to get in.
Before I do this main thing, like I procrastinate. So it's so powerful practice to say to yourself, what's the one thing I'm going to do tomorrow. And if you focused on that before wrapping up for the night, chilling out and then hitting bed. If you really manifest that intention, you'll be amazed at what happens in the morning.
You're like a freight train that is getting the job done. And I can tell you, Mark, I don't always remember to do this. I don't always get it right. And I see the difference. It's all about the intention. How did you process this big one too? From, from James clear, it's pretty confronting. It's pretty confronting, [00:50:00] but actually I totally agree with it.
And I totally agree with your setting an intention the night before we've spoken. Yeah. On the show in previous episodes. And it's so perfect that it's been brought up in this show about James clear, because my a very simple example, I'll paint a simple. Pitcher. If I haven't set that intention the night before, whether the intention let's say exercise, whether it's yoga or some kind of hit workout or a run I'll get up.
And my head is, is kind of foggy. I just stand around for a bit. I'll look around, I'll think. Well, do I want put on my trainers? What's the weather, like, let me check the rain forecast and what ends up happening is that procrastination or dig into the time that. I could have turned myself around, gone for a nice run, [00:51:00] probably at the time of my life, out in the Sydney Dawn air.
But instead I'll stand around, maybe wear my slippers, thinking I do. I do.
I haven't laid out my kit the night before, or I haven't decided before I go to bed. So that as soon as I wake up, I know what I'm doing. And I am 100% a believer in this intention setting style or this method. And both of you as well as James Clara saying here. And for me, I will say like this, if, then, then what?
So if I wake up and it is raining. Okay, well what's the backup plan, no dramas. It's this ability to change and flow with the punches that I really liked from that cleared that's tip. I like how he, how he challenged us to say, do the kill the company exercise. Like what would, if you need to get your intentions right.
[00:52:00] Ask are what will happen if I don't do it right. If I don't commit to these habits, um, if I don't set the intention as well, What happens sometimes, you know, that that, uh, negative, uh, case motivation can work hard. It's, you know, look at Michael Jones, he often got his intention, his motivation was derived from the competition with others.
He needed an external factor. So sometimes that can be rather than the upside. You can look at the downside, the fear of losing, if you will, uh, can sometimes motivate us. But what's really fascinating is. In this next clip, James clear builds on this idea and he puts forward a really interesting story that relates to how goals and systems relate to each other and how we can use them.
So once again, let's have a listen to the author of atomic habits. Mr. James clear. [00:53:00] Most people were familiar with the story of the good Samaritan stopping along the side of the road to help, uh, help a fallen person, help someone in need. Well, Princeton, their theology school decided to run this experiment and they brought in a bunch of theology students and they said, all right, we're all familiar with the story of the good Samaritan.
We're going to break you up into groups and you're going to go teach in different rooms across campus. You're gonna teach. Story. And so they started talking about, you know, how they were going to deliver the presentation. So on, they had a couple of different cohorts, one cohort, they said, all right, just go ahead and go off and deliver the presentation.
So they went off to their rooms. The second one, though, they did something interesting. They sent the group off, but on their way to the, well, they send the group off and they said, by the way, we're running a little bit behind. Right? You don't have very long to get there. It takes about 10 minutes. He only got five, so we kind of need to hurry.
You're probably already going to be late. So, if they're in a rush, they know they're going to go give this presentation on the way they planted an actor on the, on the campus. And this actor is laying on the grounds, Hertz moaning in pain. And so they scream twice and then they [00:54:00] cry out and every single group, when right past the person in need to go give a presentation about helping a person in need, the one person even stepped over the guy who was in pain in order to get there.
Now. The point of this. And what I'd like to start now is the danger of being goal focused and goal oriented. These people had a goal, right. To deliver a presentation and they were so one-sided. So narrow-minded focused on that goal that they miss the bigger picture and the perspective of what they should have been doing in the first place.
And I think that this can be a danger of often. And so instead I would like to encourage us to focus on systems systems rather than goals. Here's some examples. If you're a coach, your goal is to win a championship, but your system is what your team does a practice each day. If you're a writer, your goal might be to write a book, maybe even write a bestselling book, but your system is how you write each week.
The schedule that you follow, if you're an entrepreneur, your goal could be to build a million dollar business. So we're [00:55:00] $10 million business, but the system is the sales and marketing process that you have. The systems are what actually make the difference. There would drive the results and that what I've seen having goals is great.
Having a vision, having a dream is nice. It's important to know where you're going and where you're headed. It's important to have some clarity of focus. To know that we're moving in this direction, but once you know that having to go on paper makes very little difference and committing to the system and showing up every day drives a lot of results.
So the goal is the destination, but what really, really matters is how you're going to get there. It's so good. It's a good contender for the second, most valuable clip of the show. I reckon
it's such a good, um, Build this idea of missing the bigger picture was so com uh, confronted was so focused on losing weight, getting a six pack, being the fastest person, we know, delivering an amazing, uh, [00:56:00] uh, creative finding pitch, whatever it might be. Actually, the bigger picture is okay. Well, What, what, uh, techniques, what methods, what processes do I go through to get there and for, for me, and I think this is, and y'all agree, Mike, exactly what James is telling us.
Once you've built those processes, those systems, that's what will make the biggest value over time. Those will create the change that you're probably chasing by setting a goal. I think the, um, the difference,
I think the, I think the difference, uh, that he's pointing out is we, we can all have big ideas, um, big goals, lofty goals, um, but the, um, The real thing here is he saying the differences made in the systems much like we learnt [00:57:00] from Michael Jordan, you can want. To be the best, but he was first training last to leave.
And, uh, it's like the Einstein, uh, thing that, um, you know, 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration is the formula for success. I think these are all related. Ideas that if you have goals, turn your attention. And I'm thinking at an atomic level, James clear wants us to create daily rituals, habits, or systems that help us get to those, those goals.
And I think, um, if we've got all of this ambition and desire to do great things, frame that goal, but then devote yourself. Plow yourself into the systems, the rituals and their habits. I think this is [00:58:00] perhaps the biggest, uh, idea alongside of this. It's not motivation that we're missing, but it's this lack of clarity that we heard him talking about in the previous clip.
Put these two together. If you get this clarity on the system, you'll achieve the goals and you'll have no problem with motivation. What do you think that's exactly it. Motivation is a dangerous word, especially when you're waking up and you don't feel you're relying on motivation. That's not the way. To achieve those goals as ultimate, um, destinations.
You're trying to get to instead focus on that bigger picture. That's such a great takeaway and it really reinforces the, to do is to approach this setting, the intention approach. Those are your motivations, and that's what I'll be taking away from this episode, installing those little systems, [00:59:00] that big, big goal of why am I doing it?
I think that's right. Well talking about motivation in this final clip from James clear, I think he's giving us not only assist him, but he's giving us the motivation too. So let's for one last time here from the author, James clear, and let's find what he has to say about how long does it take to build a new habit?
What's bust the myth of how many days it takes to set a habit. Cause there's 14 days, 28 days, 60 days a year. If you do something every single day and maybe it's changes for each person, but what's the science or the, the statistics. Say about how long it takes to form a positive or negative habit, I guess.
So, 21 days you hear all the time, 30 days, a hundred days, whatever. Right now, 66 days is making the rounds is the latest solid and another book. What was that book? [01:00:00] Well, there was one study done that found that 66 days was the average for how long it takes. And as a rule of thumb, I don't think it's terrible.
Like you should remind yourself. Yeah, this is going to be months of work. It's not just getting something quick, but even within that, Study the range was quite wide. So if you did something simple, like drink a glass of water at lunch each day, it would take like three weeks. If he did something more difficult, like go for a run after work every day, that would be like seven or eight months.
But I think actually that question to begin with is sort of a, there's like a broken man. Yeah, it is. Because if you ask that question, the implicit assumption is. When do I have to stop working? Or when, when is this done? Um, and then is it automatic after a certain period of time? Well, the Stan answer to how long it takes to build a new habit is forever.
Because if you stop, then it's no longer a habit. It's a constant choice and decision. Right. I think people often look at habits as like a finish line to be crossed, but it's actually a lifestyle to be lived. And if you look at it as a lifestyle change, [01:01:00] then you're saying, okay, okay. What's something small.
Stainable I can stick to right. With something that can actually last over time, the lifetime commitment. It's so true. When you think write a habit, I'm going to quit smoking that moment of quitting that could come after a week. That could come after a day. Perhaps that's not going to be the end of it. Is it?
It's a lifetime habit too. Promise to yourself and commit to something where you're either going to repeat it or not repeat it. And I think James clear, he's, he's living into his own name here. He's being crystal clear about habits. They aren't something that you can just adopt and then throw away. You have to live to it day in, day out.
And I think that's, that's empowering to me. What do you think Mike? Yeah, I like this, this very Frank answer. And he's like, well, it sort [01:02:00] of takes forever. And to be very, I like this because to me it speaks to this. A broader theme of making change really at an atomic level inside of yourself and like perfection, you never really finished the job.
You just keep working on it. And that's why it's so important to be working on things that matter to you that are part of your dreams and your vision for yourself. You're doing you're following your effort. You're going through the ups and downs because you truly want. To achieve the things you set out to do.
You're not a passenger in life, you're in the driving seat. I think this really connects to just realizing the very best version of yourself and having this belief in the infinite potential that lies within us and that we can just keep working and keep [01:03:00] improving. All the time. What a big set of clips, Mark.
I mean, have we covered some ground rules? Yeah, we really have. It's been, it's been illuminating and James Claire's work is, is really, really relatable. It's quite practical, but at the same time he breaks things down in really, really, um, You know, quite, quite simple to understand ways. So I've, I've really enjoyed getting into it.
Yeah. He's, he's reinforced a lot of the topics that we've spoken about before, around. Uh, intentions, encouragement, personal ownership, I think comes in a lot through all of this. Um, what's, what's the biggest, what's the biggest lesson that you've taken from this episode? Do you think Mike? Yeah, I mean, to me, James clear has just been like one huge wake up call, you know, if it was a bucket of cold water we got in the last show, we got another server on this [01:04:00] one.
Um, I could probably do. More work on setting my intentions continuously reviewing the systems and working on them, working in the system, working on the system. Um, yeah, the last three clips really spoke to me. Um, And, and it's just exciting for the proposition that we can always grow. I mean, he even talked about the idea of, look, listen, if you exercise and read books, you're basically going to be superwoman or Superman.
Like it doesn't matter because if you're rage, you can fix anything. Your exercise you'll be in the right state to get the job done. So spectrum of gifts, Mark, how good was that? So, so good. I'm gonna be going to bed tonight, setting myself a great intention for tomorrow morning. Who knows what it'll be?
Maybe it'll be writing for a change. Maybe. No, you gotta, you gotta read a news article Mark. Come on stage go. I'm going to keep you on track, man. Yeah. Thank you. That's good. That's good counseling. I like that. [01:05:00] Well, it's, it's been great, Mark. Thank you for, for helping me decode the world of atomic habits.
The book by James clear, it's been really wonderful to share, uh, these sometimes uncomfortable. Sometimes practical, sometimes inspiring. Uh, it was just a full bevy from James clear. So thank you to you, Mark. And thank you to you. All of our listeners. Thank you for joining us on this journey of behavior and mindset change.
I hope you're all going to go out there. Set the intention and create the systems, not just. For today, not just for tomorrow, up for well beyond. And whether you're listening in Mexico, Austria slowly, fuck. Yeah. Or some other cozy part of the world. I hope you're enjoying this journey into learning from innovators and as Mark and I go on this journey, we're so [01:06:00] excited to share it with you to get your feedback.
So always drop in at moonshots dot. I, uh, tell us what you're thinking, who you'd like us to cover and make sure you've got. And if they use a handle. So whether it's dragons y'all we thank you for spending this time with us here on the moonshots podcast. That's around.