sheryl sandberg
episode 23
Broadcast date: March 2018
The Moonshots Podcast continues with the world of social media with Facebook COO Sheryl Sandberg. Sheryl is a top Silicon Valley executive as well as a prominent activist and author. Join us for a show where we explore productivity, self improvement and overcoming adversity.
SHOW OUTLINE
INTRO
Lean In Intro
Option B Intro
A
Stop Comparing Yourself and find Balance
Dont Leave Before You Leave
Marathon as a Work Metaphor
Negotiating Her Facebook Hire
B
Tips for Men
You Dont_Need MBA
Think Big and Hire for the Future
Risk and Ambition
sheryl sandberg
TRANSCRIPT
Hello and welcome to the moonshots podcast. It's episode 23 and I'm your co-host might Mike Parsons. And as usual, the man with a plan, the man himself, I am joined by Mr. Chad Owen. Hey there, Mike, we've got episode 23 here. Can you believe it, man? It's really great. And I'm really excited to hopefully jump right into today's topic, really following up on the previous show that we've been out live to the internets on Mark Zuckerberg from Facebook.
We've got his right hand woman. Cheryl Sandberg. Who's been COO. For 10 or 11 years now, right? Yeah. And, and I, I have to say she she's a real powerhouse. Not only is she incredibly accomplished as an executive with time at both Google and Facebook, but she's also a co-author of two pretty Epic books. And I think most companies in, uh, in the whole entire universe would love to have her as a CEO.
It, she chooses to be second in command at Facebook. Which says a lot about her, anything Chad. Yeah. Yeah. And I also just found out that she's on the board of Disney, which is kind of another, uh, fanboy company of ours. Right. But think about it, Chad, like it's like, yeah. So she went to Harvard. How did she do there?
Uh, she was top of the class. Then she just went, you know, first gig the world bank. And then she's like, you know what, maybe I'll head over to treasury now, then she's off to Google and Facebook. Oh, you know what? I'm worth over a billion dollars. I've done all these great things. Probably need to write a few books now.
And both of them best sellers. I mean, it is pro lithic and just incredibly inspiring. Yeah. And there's so much that we can, can learn from her. And I'm glad you brought the books up. Cause we have two really interesting kind of like book, trailer clips, almost that introduced the books and the first one I'm sure most or I hope all of our listeners and Watchers have heard of this book lean in.
And essentially she's brought, she's really brought the conversation about equality in the workforce to the forefront. And I think really helped kickstart kind of a national conversation around, around that. And so here is her little book trailer for lean N. I entered the workforce, believing that my generation was going to have equal responsibility and equal opportunity.
And it didn't work out that way. Women are getting more college degrees, more graduate degrees entering the workforce at every level. But in industry, after industry, Women are at 18, 15, 20% of the top jobs. Women are held back by many things, held back by bias, by lack of flexibility, by lack of opportunity.
We also hold ourselves back. We don't sit at the table, we don't raise our hands. We don't let our voices be loud enough. I remember my first day at Facebook driving to this new job in this hard job and not being sure I could do it. I think about all the moments when I just didn't believe in myself, every test, I was sure I was about to fail.
Every job. I wasn't sure I could do. It was after watching so many women quietly lean back after watching myself quietly lean back and miss opportunities that I started to see the pattern and started to talk about why does this matter? Boy, it matters a lot because no one gets to the corner office. By sitting on the side, not at the table, this books for women of all ages, young girls who are thinking about what their futures might be, people who might be out of the workforce, thinking about coming back or even someone who's a volunteer and wants to lean in and take on more leadership to encourage women to really believe in themselves and believe in their dreams and to help men do their part to form a more equal world.
By making sure that all of us have opportunities based on our passions and interests, not just based on our gender. Part of what I'm hoping lean in will do is really start a conversation in every workplace, in every company. In every school to start thinking about gender differently.
I believe the world would be a better place. If half our companies and half the countries were run by women and half our homes are run by men. This is about believing in yourself.
There you go. Like, what, what I love about her, uh, approach is it's, it's something that is like, um, not only inspiring to women, but I think for everyone, I think we can all learn. Like you only get places in life. If you lean in, if you actually really. Have a go. And I, and I actually think that if you look at all the other entrepreneurs and innovators, Chad, that we've had on, on this show with out a doubt, the story of, um, that binds them all is that they are, I mean, they're all leaning in don't you think?
Like every one of them is 100%. They're all in the, not hesitating, the not. Doubting themselves. In fact, that courage is sort of crucial to success. Yeah. But I think what's unique to her. And also I think Oprah is, they're much more at least outspoken about this idea of work-life balance, which I don't know that I believe in or not, but both of them speak about the intention Nally of what you're doing.
And I think that is what I. Take away most from this message of leaning in is to question the status quo in whatever position, status, race, gender, sexuality you are. We can have that larger conversation about how to create more opportunities for everyone just simply by recognizing. Like by calling it out and then working actively towards, towards making it better, you know, that all starts with kind of a personal journey before we can kind of, you know, kind of to help ourselves before we can help everyone else, you know?
Right. And, and I'll, I'll go like even a step further with this. If I look at things that I've done in life, both work and in life in general, if I look at entrepreneurs in general, I think those that succeed are able to overcome the fear of the unknown to overcome their doubts. So this, I find this a great reminder to myself that, you know, often when I'm doing something new, you'll sit there and go, Oh, I don't know if this is going to work.
Should I really try this. And what, what Cheryl's message, uh, does is it reminds me that you have, if you're going to do something, you have to be all in, you have to really go for it. And what's interesting from an entrepreneurial lens is I think a lot of people have dreams of creating a business or, or, or creating an idea, but it's their doubts that hold them back from, from having a go.
So. Just overcoming those doubts and actually putting your best foot forward and being all in. I think it's something that we can all take from, from Cheryl's idea in, in Laney. And I think. Yeah. And a big message I think too, is creating the community around yourself and getting that support network that can allow you to do that.
I think you're absolutely right. And that a lot of what scares us from undertaking these entrepreneurial ventures and risks is sometimes we don't have a safety net or we don't feel like we have a safety net. I think a big core message of what she talks about in lean in is, you know, be sure that you have a partner that.
We'll support you and not just Pat you on the back and say, Oh, go get them. But actually, you know, put in the hard work and the time and be there for you, you know, when you stumble and when you fall. And so I think that's another interesting message. Is that kind of like we can't do it alone and, or we don't think that we can do it alone and we're maybe a little bit stronger than we think we are.
Yeah. And I think, um, another thing that she does building on that, which is very similar is to a number of other great innovators that we've decoded is she's not scared to talk about failure. She's not, um, she's not scared to talk about, I don't know that th the awkward things, the hard things in life, And I think that's really important because once you can be with a group of people and admit, Hey, you know what, I'm really unsure about something.
The crazy thing is that everyone else will kind of go, you know what? I'm, I'm not that confident about that either. And actually then you're like, Oh, okay, well maybe that's it's, uh, it's actually not that bad a thing. Maybe we can think of some ideas. And I think it's that, that frankness. That, uh, she has in her first book to call out her own concerns.
I think this is key to this idea of learning. She's like, she's going to be vulnerable. She's going to share the idea, talk about it. And what what's really powerful is she sort of touched onto a very controversial topic, but she just totally embraced it. Like, Hey, I'm facing a challenge. Others are facing this challenge.
Let's talk about it. And if you thought she did a good job talking about equality in the workforce and women leaning in do that, like her next book, she does went next level on sharing vulnerabilities, um, and, and really talking to some really tricky topics. And you've just got to admire her courage, her strength, just to even talk about this stuff.
Yeah. And so the book that Mike's talking about is option B that she co-authored with Adam Grant. And so I'll actually just play the book trailer for that, to give you a sense for both. It's kind of like a doubling down on many of the things themes that she talked about in lean in, uh, but on a much more personal level.
Two years ago, I lost my husband, Dave unexpectedly, which is an unimaginable thing to live through. It felt like I was sucked into a foil. Like I couldn't quite breathe or think, I didn't think I was going to get through it. And I was even more worried about getting my children through it. I could barely get through it myself, let alone have my two children through this.
We can't control what happens to us. But we do have some influence over how we respond to the events and hardships in our lives. What Adam gave me were specific things I could do. We wanted to write a book that would combine her insights with the best evidence, but also with other people's stories, we all face challenges and some of them are big and huge and traumatic.
And some of them are the daily challenges, but we need resilience for all of it. Resilience is not a fixed personality trait. It's a lifelong project. A few weeks after Dave died, there was a father, son activity, our friend, Phil and I were talking about who should do it? I said, okay, well, that's good. But like, I want Dave, I want Dave to go with our son and he said, option a is not available.
So let's just kick the shit out of option B. Woo. She's rocking out this. She is like, she is not going to take a back seat. She's going to get on with life. Got old power too. Huh? Yeah, I'm not, I'm not going to, like, I got like a little emotional there listening to that because that's, that's not a story that you hear from, from anyone, even a fan, you know, close family member, let alone, you know, someone who's running a multi-billion dollar company.
Exactly. And, and don't you find though, um, that a lot of the great entrepreneurs and innovators have some ability to share. Things, what I think of like the internal conversations that the, the, the sort of conversation that happens in your head, they're able to get that out there. And, and I think surely one of the things that we can learn from Cheryl here is that, you know, so often we don't want to appear weak.
Or vulnerable, but I would have to say, if you look at her track record and success, you'd have to say she's making a great case for being more open and more vulnerable as a way to like, okay, this is where I'm at. And you know, she was talking to a friend and he said to her, you know, option a is not available.
So you have to go for option B. And this led her to a huge progress in her personal life. She didn't talk to Adam Grant. There's great author. And they ended up, co-authoring a book around this idea and it all started from this idea of being vulnerable. In the hopes of building resiliency. I think that's the outcome that they work towards kind of in, in the studies and stories that they share in the book.
And I, I found it so refreshing how, um, autobiographical both of the books are. Hmm. Um, you know, someone like Richard Branson who has two autobiographies, there's a lot that we can learn from them, but they have kind of, you know, particular narrative style and you will only. Kind of takeaway specific and you can have to interpret, well, that's what Richard Branson did, but how can I do it for myself?
I love how, you know, what the idea of a lean in circle and some of the practices. And kind of questions that you can walk yourself through an option, be like there's some really practical things that she's imparting to us, um, from her learnings. Yeah. And, and, and so this is a great opportunity to think about some of, you know, the really powerful ideas she has to offer us.
So coming up in the show, we're going to go. All through a spectrum of wisdom and ideas from show. We're going to talk about how to realize your dreams of being great in your career and having a rich and rewarding personal life. Um, she's going to, she's got some great ideas around education and MBAs and I, and she's got some great metaphors for, for, uh, for life as a marathon.
I mean, there's a ton coming up on the show, so I'm really, really looking forward to getting into all of that. I just want to remind everyone, Chad, that they can get all this, all these insights, all the clips, extra links. You can get everything from moonshots.io. So just head there for the show notes, every single episode, we've got indexed in all the links and so forth, but I wanted to ask you, Chad, we've got so many great ideas coming from, from Cheryl.
Where should we start? Well, the other thing I just wanted to call out is, uh, some of you may be watching this live probably a couple of weeks before it goes out onto the podcast. So for those of you that just can't wait for the learnings that Mike and I are extracting from these entrepreneurs, be sure.
Uh, to follow us on Facebook and Twitter and, and you can find links to our scheduled live shows here and get the scoop, um, before everyone one else. And just want to give a shout out to those of you that are watching and listening to us live. Totally. And, and I just wanted to say that I've already seen, we've got friends and, and viewers in, uh, New York, uh, in Europe who are tuned into the live stream, uh, as really, really, really cool.
So we got to hit them with some Sheryl wisdom, Ted. Yeah. So, um, Going back to this idea of if Cheryl talking about work-life balance, there's again, just a new and fresh perspective that I think we haven't heard from other entrepreneurs. So here she is just explaining a little bit more, some of her thoughts about that.
No one can have it. All that language is the worst thing that's happened to the women's movement. You know, no one even bothers to apply it to men. It's really pressure on women. I think what happens to women is we compare ourselves at home. To the women who are full-time work at home mothers and we fall short compared to them, I am falling short every day.
And then you can compare yourself at work to men, mostly men, but some women, mostly men who have no other responsibilities really go home whenever they want. And you can feel bad there too. So we can spend all our time feeling terrible about how we're lousy workers and lousy mothers. And by the way, I do this a lot, all of us do, or we can start realizing that.
We can be great mothers. The data on this is super clear that you can be a great and very successful parent with a great relationship with thriving children with less time. And you can be a great worker and a great colleague at work, but not have to be there for 12 hours a day in person. And I think we have to let ourselves do that.
So my, my big thing here is I relate to this idea. So much, uh, I don't know about YouTube, but when I started my career, when I really made the decision to like really work hard and go for it. I got so out of balance, I literally was as white working, 80, 90 hours a week. Um, I remember turning up to the offices of McCann Erickson in Amsterdam and I arrived before the cleaners had even started.
So I couldn't get in the office. So I think it was like five 45 in the morning. And had this big project and needed to do some work. And I remember sitting in the car pot, like, ah, I need to get it. And I, when I, when I, when I just laugh at me, like I was just so full on, so ridiculous. But in the end, the big learning for me was like the healthier I am at home, the healthier and better I am at work.
And these things that integrally related and you, you, you, you, you are a better person. At work when you're a better person in your personal life. I think those things are so linked. I mean, don't you find this like such a truth that Cheryl is sharing with us? Yeah, the most helpful part about what she says for me is the mindset.
The mindset of stop comparing because that's, that's like the little insidious thing inside of our brains that really gets us because the reason that we're there so early in the morning and so late is because we know that someone else is, you know, the, the person that we're competing with maybe a little too much with, at work or worrying too much about our competitors they're doing.
And I love the kind of Zen ness of. You know, don't, don't compare yourself. You know, there is a way for you to have your cake and eat it too. You know, we can be more efficient and effective at work. So that we can spend less time there so that we can then reinvest in other places and be better partners and parents and community members.
Um, for me, that mindset is, is really what I'm taking away. Yes. And, and you, you touched on there, it's like quality over quantity. It's about making choices about what's the most important thing I can do. And I think Cheryl. Uh, really has a lot, uh, to offer us there. I think what's really interesting in this, uh, next clip is she really has a, um, a lot to offer us, um, be balanced in your life.
But when you make a decision to do something really be all in, and I think what's really great about this next idea from Cheryl is. Yes, it applies to women, but I think it also applies to men. It applies to everyone, which is no matter what could be in the future. If you have something that you really want, something that you really like doing in your career, just go for it.
Don't second guessed all of these variables in the future. So let's have a listen now to Cheryl giving us some inspiration on how to be all in. You tell women not to leave before they leave. What do you mean by that? Young woman came to see me at Facebook once. And she started asking me all these questions about how it balanced, you know, kids and, and work.
And she looked kind of young. So I said, you know, do you have a baby? She said, Oh no. I said, what are you thinking about having a child? She said, don't no, she started laughing. She said, I just graduated from college. I don't even have a boyfriend. So, what you're saying is women aren't going for opportunities because they're afraid of the work-life balance.
They'll ultimately face. So they keep from going for big, big jobs because they think, gee, if I do a big job, I'll never be able to have a family. And you say, go for the big job and, and, and deal with family later. I think I feel very strongly that all of us have to make these personal decisions. When we have, when we have that child, you have to decide, are you going to be a work at home mom, or you're going to be a work in the office, mom?
But until then you should lean in and keep your foot on the gas pedal because it turns out if you do that, you might get promoted. You might make enough money to afford childcare. You might have a more interesting job. You might get promoted to a level where there's more flexibility and you might have for, you need to make demands so that your work actually compliments your family life.
For me, this clip was all about being present and not getting caught up too far into the future. I think the story of this college aged woman in fretting over fam, I mean, that's a real thing. Um, and. I I've seen that amongst all, all kinds of peers in both men and women, uh, we kind of get caught up into this future that maybe we think is expected of us or is, you know, uh, something like that.
Without taking that time and attention to figure out what is best for us now. And in this moment, and to me, this just speaks to Cheryl's ultimate confidence in herself because she's like, I'll deal with it when I get there, but I'm just going to make the best of things right now. And for me, that is kind of like a quintessential entrepreneurial trait.
Is that confidence that you're going to commit to what you're doing now and you'll deal with the problems down the road, but you're, you're not gonna put, you're not going to like try and plan for every contingency and all of these things. It's just like, no. Commit to the thing you're doing and you know, that you'll take care of it later.
And that's what I love. Um, that kind of fierce quality of, of that, that she's, she's bringing out in that clip. She's so lady Gaga right here, fearless and relentless, just like she'll go for it. And one of the things that's really interesting, Chad, just to explore this a little bit more is for me, if I look at the pattern in all of the other entrepreneurs and innovators, The reason, the place that they source this courage from is number one, they're solving a big problem in the world.
And two they're deeply, deeply passionate about that problem. They really care about that problem. And I think that is the source of the inner strength. So the reason why a lot of companies fail. Is that the principals that are involved and not that committed to the idea itself. It's kind of a nice idea.
I was with someone, uh, a startup guru yesterday, uh, Chad, and he was telling me this, this, um, story of like, we'll talking about what we see in startups and founders. You know, he was commenting to me on like over the Christmas break. Um, how, for what. Several weeks, a number of founders went on vacation and we were just having a giggle to ourselves as sort of wise old warriors.
We were just like those guys, they just don't want it enough. They don't really care about the mission they're on because they all kind of disappeared for three weeks. He's like, where did everyone go? Right. My point here is that I think you can have the carriage of Cheryl. If you're doing something that you really care about, but that, that thing really matters in the world.
I think there's like an abundant energy source there. I think that's how we can all, you know, try and get a little bit of Cheryl's fearlessness. Yeah. I think. It's yeah, for me, it just comes down to not getting too obsessed or living too far into the future. And if you're not helping that customer, that person right here and now then, you know, it's, um, it's maybe not where something that you're, it's maybe not worth doing can getting back to you saying like, you've really got to be solving a problem.
That's that's big. Um, and listen, listen to here's. The other thing that I think is really helpful for our audience. What's the worst that can happen, honestly. So you try and create a product or a service. You try and tackle a big problem. Well, what's the, like the concept. If you actually really play out the risks and consequences, they're not nearly as big as you might think that they are.
And so I think stop worrying about all those things in the future. Just go out and do things, but that doesn't mean that there's not hard work involved. Okay. And I think what's really good about Cheryl is she's totally open and up front that there's a lot of hard work. That it's required to get not only your career going and to get your business going, but also you've got to invest in your personal life as well.
So we've got this great new clip coming up, and this is Cheryl talking about life and about work really as a marathon. So let's have a listen now to Cheryl Sandberg, think of a career, having a career and a family like having a marathon long grueling, ultimately rewarding. You got to the start line, men and women equally trained.
You could argue with the educational attainment of women in this country, women are even better trained, but let's say equal arguing saying marathon starts, the men start running. What are they here? What are the messages they hear? You've got this, keep running, got this. You can do it. What are the women here?
Much more skeptical. You sure you want to do this? Does it make sense to start a race? You might not finish. Don't you want kids one day, the race continues. The messages go on the cries for the men. Get louder. You've got this. Keep going. You're going to cross the finish line. The cries for the women get louder too.
Should you be working when you have a child at home? Doesn't your child need you. Yeah, the start difference. I think it's true. And it's interesting to me how, despite all of the setbacks, like the real setbacks that she and women across the world have in terms of, of equality, she. When it's come down to, it has stepped up to the plate and we have, we have a clip coming up too.
That's the story of negotiating her job at, at Facebook with Mark Zuckerberg, which I think dovetails really nicely with this clip and how she's responded to the reality of the environment that she faced as she was starting out as a young woman and navigating her career, like you said, in finance and then kind of pivoting towards tech.
Yeah, look, I'll think let's just get straight into that. Sorry. It's so Epic. And it's so typical, Cheryl, isn't it. She's just like, she's open about the doubts and the worries she had. She had her own like, Aw, but then she found her in a strength. So let's just jump straight into Cheryl. And this is how she negotiated, hit negotiated with Mark Zuckerberg.
I had been talking to Mark Zuckerberg about becoming Facebook col for months, months, you know? And when he finally offered me the job, I felt grateful. I felt lucky to have it. He made me a financial offer, which was excellent. And I was ready to take it. And I was afraid if I negotiated, he wouldn't want me.
And he wouldn't and he wouldn't like me. And I felt ungrateful. It was such a great job. There was such a great compensation package. I should be lucky and grateful and say, thank you. And that's what I was about to do. And my husband and my brother-in-law kept saying negotiate, negotiate, negotiate. And finally, my brother-in-law in anger looked at me and said, you know, excellent, Cheryl.
Why are you about to take this job and make half of what any man would make? There is no man in the world who takes a job at that level and doesn't negotiate.
And I was like, so I didn't do else. Nothing motivated me. Right. The money. I just wasn't motivated. Except by that, I'm like, you're right. I am not making less than some man. No way. Yeah. I can negotiate it. And for 12 hours, Mark Marquardt. And for 12 hours, you have to have a stomach for this, but, but he came back and we actually made a better deal that it was a longer term.
It was a better deal. But I also, and my husband said this to me. He said, if you don't negotiate, he won't value you as much. And so, and this is interesting. I want to be clear about this. When I tell women to lean in and negotiate, I am not saying, and have never said we do it the way men do it because you know what, that doesn't work.
So you cannot just demand more money or lean in meaning, say whatever you want. We have videos on our website for free lean and.org on how to negotiate. And with, with men, they can negotiate because everyone expects them to advocate for them. They can just say I'm worth more and it's fine. If a woman did that, it's a very bad result.
So as a woman, you have to tie that into what's good for the other side again, communal. So what I said to Mark and this was before I did the research on my book. So I got lucky that I got this right, but this is what the research shows. And this is what lean in is trying to systematically teach everyone.
As I said, you realize you're hiring me to lead your negotiating teams. So, this is the only time we'll ever be on the other side of the table. And I'm going to bring these skills to my job at Facebook. I know you would. I know you would be disappointed if I didn't show you. I had these skills.
Yeah, it's such a great story too me, because she's really just advocating for everyone to ask for what they're worth, because they're providing value total. Of course, she says, you know, you have to figure out what the communal value is and what you're bringing to the table. But then you have to speak up and that's where a lot of us, what a lot of us don't do is voice it.
Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. And what's really, what was really great about that technique that we can all learn from is like, In those circumstances, if you want to hire me, you would expect me to negotiate fair value. Just like when I become an executive at the company, you want me to do my transactions where there's fair value for both parties.
That's, that's how you grow, create a thriving business. So I think this was was great. And I get in what you notice. Um, Is is her candor. And I think that if you look at what we can take out of this first set of ideas that we get from Cheryl, it's like being kind of a little bit Frank and honest about what's really bothering you or your deeper concerns and worries because if you get them out there with somebody you can trust, of course.
That's the start of you conquering them and being stuck in your mind, going, you know, this is not a path to getting on top of the, the concern, right? Yeah. And I don't know if this is like maybe too much of a stretch here, but what I'm pulling out of this first section is in the way that we've talked about getting.
Uh, you know, products and services and ideas out in front of customers, Cheryl is actually kind of starting upstream of that and is like communicate your worth and value and desires and, and ideas and emotions with your teammates and with your company. Uh, Because that is the only way that you can refine your ideas, be sure that everyone's being heard, et cetera.
And so there's this kind of idea of like this openness and transparency and vulnerability about communications. I think that's really interesting. It's kind of like the same method just applied. In a different realm. Yes. Yes. So, so what, what I think where we're getting to is you've got sort of these two books from Cheryl, right?
And the first one leaning in is really about not fearing, doubting and. Just stepping into leaning into your dreams and your passions and going for it. But part of that, I think, which is essential to her message is this idea of fair value. You know, you're creating value. You should be valued for that. Now, I think there's so much in that whether you are working inside a large organization, whether you're a founder, Is taking care of people in your team to make sure that you are recognizing and valuing them, all of them, every single one, regardless of any type characteristic that they might have.
But what's really interesting, I think is that beyond this idea of leaning in what I really love is that along the way, there are going to be setbacks along their way. There are going to be sometimes in Cheryl's case, terrible situations where her husband passes away now, overcoming that and finding the resilience to overcome that this is not just for the few people that lose their partners.
I mean, let's be honest. We all go through our own hero's journey. We all face challenges. Maybe they haven't even come yet in life for us and for our listeners. But I think the key thing here is to be resilient. And the pattern that ties the two books together is she's really candid and open about her feelings.
She looks to others to help her. Get through them. And what's really, uh, I think you can see why she's such a wonderful and inspiring person is that she shares this with the world in order to help others overcome, uh, the, the challenges that she's faced and this kind of. Gives her this enormous presence, not only in Silicon Valley, but I think far, far beyond that, she's almost like an Oprah in waiting, you know what I mean?
Yeah. And I think you could argue that the reach of lean in, you know, rivals someone like Oprah, you know, who, who has been standing for that kind of empowerment. For a very in working towards it for a very long time. Yeah. Yeah. And no surprise that Oprah and her hanging out a bunch like there, you know, Cheryl's always doing shows with her and then when they're there, they're like what a dynamic duo.
Imagine that Cheryl, Cheryl and Oprah in the same room, that's like, Oh my gosh, they wrote a book together. That would be interesting. Oh my gosh. Well, it would be a bestseller that's for sure. Now we've learned a ton already from Cheryl. Chad. We've got two great book recommendations, lean in option B. We'll have links to those in the show notes.
So we're good to go before we get into more Cheryl, we should remind everyone, um, we got some, some big things happening and. We should talk a little bit about our next European tour. Yeah. Well, 14 days from now, two weeks, we'll be in Bucharest, Romania broadcasting live bringing you the learnings from three, uh, Eastern European entrepreneurs that have been in the trenches.
And, uh, you know, we'll be sharing their learnings and thoughts on, uh, you know, growing and scaling companies and some of the challenges that they face. And I'm excited to do my second live show from, from Europe, uh, with you Mike it's, uh, it's really refreshing for me the different perspectives. Yeah, totally.
I love that the different perspectives work. The funniest thing is, um, you're in New York and I'm in Sydney, but we always do. We do a live broadcast in Europe. What's with that it's it's, it's close. Right? Know, it's a halfway point. Is that have not, not really. Uh, yeah, but you're right on the next, uh, moonshot show.
Um, we'll share with you some of our guests, if they are, I mean, Total a player guest list for the show three amazing entrepreneurs and Cheryl will be proud of us. We've got a great female Romanian entrepreneur. That's going to be really exciting. Um, I can also tell you that the tickets for the event are moving like hotcakes.
So the show is going to be packed with, uh, lots of cool people ready to learn. Wisdom and find inspiration from entrepreneurs all around the world. So can't wait for that. If you want any more information about that show, just go to moonshots.io and you will find everything, everything you need there. But now we go from Europe and we come back to Cheryl in Silicon Valley.
Uh, what's next for our inspiration and learning chat. Well, I picked up lean-in off my wife's nightstand because I was interested in what Cheryl had to say to people like ourselves, uh, you know, privileged white men. And I think this next clip from her really just summarizes, uh, some of her best thoughts on how we can be supportive of that entire movement.
What is lean in's message to men. I'm so glad you asked, because I think the least understood thing about my book is that people think it's a book for women, and it's not, it's a book for all of us. And if we're going to get to equality in the workforce where men have 86% of the top jobs, men are going to have to be a huge part of that equation.
Uh, the book has four main messages for men. The first is help women sit at the table, help women reach for opportunities. The second is to really push back on the success and likeability gap. The third is. Let's have the honest conversation about mentorship and sponsorship. No one's having. And the fourth is we need to actually help women navigate through the child-rearing years.
Yeah, my, my, my inspiration, this goes just to the idea that the most thriving businesses I've ever been part of the best teams I've ever been part of a really big theme there is that everyone feels appreciated. Everyone feels respected and the business goes out of the way to see that that person succeeds.
And sometimes you got to help them out with things that are happening at home in order for them to be successful at work. And what this just reminds me of is we got to do a good job. We've really got to make sure that the underlying conditions for a great team and a great business. Is this sense of well-being because when people feel happy, healthy, and safe at work, they'll crush it.
They absolutely crush it. And this is the inspiration that I get from her, which is sort of this universal truth of take good care of people. And they'll take good care of the business. Yeah, I would add being sure that people are, feel heard. Right. Uh, I think that's a lot of what Cheryl's calling out here as well, being sure that everyone is at the table and everyone gets a voice.
Um, It sounds really simple, but I know that you and I have seen that in most of our listeners have seen this where the highest paid person, you know, in the room talks 90% of the time and no one else is ever heard. I think being sure to be as supportive. Of everyone and be sure that all of those voices are heard is really important.
And then of course, you know, the kind of, uh, Alibaba, Jack ma philosophy of, if we just keep our people happy and healthy, then that pretty much takes care of itself. And that's like you said, across all areas of their life. And so in the specific case of, of lean in and, and what Sheryl Sandberg is saying, is that, how can we be sure that families aren't reliant so much upon this kind of expected labor of women?
Um, how can companies be more supportive? How can partners be more supportive in that environment? The, the, this idea of, you know, taking care of people, it does such a good business case for it, Chad. So this, this is how I always try and think about it. If you just. Invest a little bit more time, effort, maybe money, but you do that to take good care of your people.
Then this engender such good will from them to the company, right. And policing of these folks are taking good care of me. And then what happens is you get things, dedication, hard work, and loyalty is what you get in return. Go beyond that. And it's so hard to put a price or value on that. But even if you think about it in, in this kind of terms of price, if a good person leaves a company, right.
Or even someone that has potential, hasn't quite got there yet. But they leave the cost of the downtime of you lose the person. You have to find someone recruiting costs you a lot of money. Then you have to train the new person. The cost is Epic. So if you're thinking they're like, I probably need to invest five grand just to.
Do this thing for someone, if you think about the business case, if they're worth it, um, if they're working hard and they've got this great potential to offer to the company, th th it's the most sound investment strategy ever, because if you lose them, the raw cost to the company is so huge. It's totally worth taking.
Yeah. Yeah. And it's just the right thing to do. Right. I mean, it's just, it's just simply the right thing to do. Yeah. And I mean, I love that Cheryl's calling. This equality between men and women out, because that, that is the reality, which is 84% of top positions are filled by men. And again, it's kind of, because of this assumed way that we think the world's supposed to be, but I think it starts with.
All of us individually is especially people like ourselves that are working in fast moving progressive environments that we need. We need to take a long, hard look at these kinds of things and just be sure that we're being supportive of everyone and not just kind of catering to the needs of our little bubble.
That's such a good point. And I think that often what happens is people in their quest to. Make progress there. The analogy I would use, they become like bulls in a China shop, right. That is charged on and they forget to listen to others and take others along with them. But here's another thing you mentioned, like assumptions about how we think the world should be.
And actually Cheryl will challenge us in a completely different area about an assumption that we all think is like a prerequisite to do great in business. So here's the interesting thing. Cheryl. Okay. When to, I think roughly speaking the best university on the planet, right? Probably I would, I would say the university of Chicago is, but a slide.
Okay. All right. We have to let it slide with me too, because I went to the, to the university of life. Um, I lasted all those seven weeks in college, so let's not even go there, but, but check this out. Um, so she goes to arguably one of the leading colleges on the planet. Hey Chad, how did she do there? Like how were her marks?
Uh, top in her class. Yeah, yet here's the interesting thing that she did publicly. She challenged the notion of whether we need MBAs, whether we need to even go to college, to work in the modern tech sector. So let's, let's have a listen. Now, this is really interesting. These are some Bloomberg, uh, uh, hosts freaking out about Cheryl had to say about the role of college in our modern work careers.
Facebook Sheryl Sandberg, uh, things that business school is not necessary or even useful for people who weren't were want to work in technology in a post on the question and answer website Quora, uh, the Harvard grad wrote quote, while I got great value from my experience, MBAs are not necessary at Facebook and I don't believe they are important for working in the tech industry.
Sheryl Sandberg went to Harvard, she got her MBA in 1995. Here she is essentially telling the world don't do that. You know, if you want to be the next. To me, or the kind of next tech star, you don't need an MBA. What we're looking for, our skills and the ability to solve problems. And she compared her ideal hire to an athlete that she can cross train.
And so that's sort of just means, you know, you have to be good period. This isn't about degrees and it's not about education. Um, she went as far as to say an MBA is good for some people in some situations, which is not a ringing endorsement. Hmm. No, it's not a ringing endorsement at all, but I agree with her.
I agree with her 100%. Right. And you're, you're living Testament, right? You don't even need a degree. Look at where you are, Mike. No. Well, well, the funny thing is I never even think about. Oh, my gosh, I feel so inadequate. I don't have this degree now. I do want to say this, the role of universities and colleges to inspire us to think right.
To inspire us on learning, how to learn. I cannot think of a more important thing on the planet. Okay. So let me get that clear. I spend a lot of time on tools like Coursera you to me. I, I, in fact, I probably have watched, um, the Yale economic theory program from start to finish it's um, the guy, you know, the, the, the Schiller home index, um, the, the famous thing about the prices going up in the, in the marketplace.
Well, I've, I've actually listened to his lectures. Several times because I love this content. So, um, it just wasn't for me at the time college wasn't the path, but here's the thing that I think what Cheryl was really challenging us to be is how do we be that cross training athlete, ready with skills and ready to learn a multitude of different things.
There's sort of, I immediately conjure this more agile Ninja, like professional rather than this. Very academic, uh, executive. And I think that's the contrast between sort of the industrial age and the technology age that we live in. W when you, when you hear this cross training athlete, what, what image comes to your mind about what kind of executives we need to be?
It all comes down to like adaptability and responsiveness. Yeah, totally think that that just, that needs to be rolled out across the entire organization. And. I think she's absolutely right. The individuals that can adapt to market forces, what the customer needs, all of those things are vitally important to keep, to keep companies, building things that people actually want.
And like, while a degree from university may be an indicator that someone is able to learn, um, it can backfire and maybe they're too set in their ways and they stand behind that degree of like, well, I'm smart because I have the degree, not I'm smart because I know how to learn. I know how to adapt. That can take a new information and think for myself, which I also would argue is the true purpose of higher education and learning.
Um, and that is the kind of education that I did get at the university of Chicago. Um, but I've never had to pull out my degree and I've never felt like that is where the value came from. It really is. Um, it comes back to the theme of learning, how to learn. I was fortunate to go to university to learn how to learn.
And now I'm learning from all the entrepreneurs that that's what you need to learn, how to do. It's like, okay, great. So I made one. Uh, you know, good decision when I was a young and then, but that, that, that is what I get out of the cross training is that you need to be able to learn how to learn and learn quickly and adapt.
And that, that, that is kind of the highest value indicator. Yeah. It's totally the highest form. And I would say what, what we can take out of this is that, you know, Don't rest on your laurels in terms of what, you know, in your expertise. Um, you know, after I had spent more than a decade on Madison Avenue working for these big ad agencies and I had the good fortune of going around the world, doing that, I was like, you know what, I'm going to totally go back to school and reboot.
And I took a job where for the first time, uh, I hadn't been like the CEO for like four or five gigs, right. To, I went from marketing to product and got into the world of innovation and. This was sort of my university degree. This was my four hard years of college, which was totally learning a whole new universe.
And I think we've got to be prepared to do this a lot more than what would have traditionally been expected. You'd get your certifications from college and then you'd make a nice career with maybe some, some gentle pivots. I think what we're all doing much like you did, you were like going one direction.
The the, the, the, the direction that was certainly by no means storytelling. And then you had this aha moment, didn't you, you just went and, and you went and pivot into, uh, into a whole new work and maybe you'll have two, three, four more pivots in your life. So I hope so. Yeah. And, and so just embracing this and, uh, as you said, learning how to learn.
I think this is, this is the essential. Uh, juice that we can all take from this don't stop learning. And you know, what's interesting how many of the people have we seen that we've decoded and listened to on our show? How many of them put this constant learning? Like look at bill Gates, the company allocates two hours a day to be learning new things.
Yeah, it's probably 19 or 20 out of the 23 or 22. Yeah. Uh, and I think this directly relates to this next clip we have of her talking about how to hire. I know that that is a big question for most, if not all entrepreneurs, how important those first and early hires are. And I think this just builds on her idea of, you know, hiring cross training athletes.
Cross train athletes, as, you know, being adaptable people that can help you succeed into the future. So here's Cheryl talking about thinking big and hiring, right? I think the most important thing about growing a business successfully is thinking ahead about where your hand Bay and when you're trying to really scale an organization, you need to go really quickly and get people to accomplish more than they thought was possible.
And I think that. Comes from internal motivation, which really comes revision. That's big enough. I think the second thing is you have to hire big and big. I don't mean famous. I mean, ahead of you are. So when you're growing an organization really quickly, what happens is that what normally takes an organization years happens in a period of just months.
So when I was at Google, you know, my team went from four to 4,000 in about five years. That means that if you look at those first four people I hired in order for them to be part of the people who are running that organization, they need to do about, you know, 10 or 15 years worth of growing and, you know, getting experience in a much shorter period of time.
So if you think you're going to grow quickly, hire for what you think you're going to need over hire, hire people who are more qualified, have more experience or hire people who are right out of school. But kind of overachieve in their current roles. I don't think it's that number of years in the workforce that matters.
I think it's hiring the people that you're going to need them now, because then happens so quickly. Wow. Um, I can not tell you how important this idea of hiring a hiring big hiring for tomorrow. And not today. I have seen so many businesses, um, like almost strangled by the fact that they under hire. Right.
So what they do is they think, okay, we've got to really manage the budget. Oh my gosh. Let's try and get someone let's really try and get them on the smallest, uh, compensation possible. Let's get someone a little bit junior, right? She's saying. Do the opposite. And here's what I've seen a bunch of times when companies dare to believe in the people they hire and like over hire, they create so much value.
They create so much wellbeing within the organization because they're competent. They can work more autonomously. They communicate well. They, they, they, there may be. Over-performing this station, this creates so much momentum and it creates growth. Whereas companies that are under hiring they're hiring for yesterday are struggling because they don't work efficiently.
The people are not capable of performing the tasks that they're being given, which is very unfair to, to the employee, by the way. And what happens is you start to see issues that there's a low customer satisfaction, low customer advocacy, there's high churn rate of staff within the organization. I love what she's saying because a lot of founders in startups, and this is particularly for all our listeners.
Who are in startups. You think you're doing the businesses service by under hiring or getting people that are much more affordable people, you can pay less, but this hurts the businesses end up costing you so much more in the future. So I, I just think that, um, the big learning we have from Cheryl here is higher up higher, big, higher for tomorrow.
And it's, it's a gamble. If it's a risk worth taking Dane team, Chad. Yeah. Part of me kind of gets caught up in my own thought experiment. Like the whole chicken and egg. Well, I don't have enough money to hire people, but I can't create value without the right people. So I, I agree with her sentiment. I think for what I would love to know is kind of how you can do that in practice.
And certainly I think this applies to companies that have secured funding that have a defined runway. Or some stable cashflow for some of the more scrappy entrepreneurs of us out there. It may be a little harder to, uh, to figure out how to put that into practice, but it, I definitely agree with her sentiment of.
Hire someone that's out of school, but can train that you can train to over-perform in their current role because you know that they can become your COO or something to that effect. And that's and thinking five or 10 years into the future, like someone like Jack Mon does when they're hiring. Sure. Hire the person that you will, you want to be your boss.
In five years. Yeah. Yeah. But also if you don't in this modern world, it doesn't have to be, make them an employee you can partner with, uh, with a really great, uh, freelancer or contractor or partner expert like this isn't about just hiring. Uh, people in the modern age, you might find a freelance guru and you might like be working on this project over hire for this project because maybe they make this project so good that the next project is, is bigger and bolder and so forth.
So I think it can be not only higher, big. Partner big associate big. And you know, this reminds me of that wisdom that you should always surround yourself with people that are better than you raise the game around you. So I think it's, it's not only hires, it's not only partners like just hanging out with people that.
Excite you with the things they talk about, who challenge you? Who, who, who pushed you to be better? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love that idea of partnering. Um, and yeah. Also finding those mentors and role models that. Are already living in that future so that you, you can ask them, Oh, Hey, in your business, what, what are your needs right now?
Yeah, because I know that that's actually what I need to be hiring for and working towards now. Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, what's interesting is this also has to come a bit, uh, three 60. When you think about the system of ideas that she's got for us, you know, don't fear. Lean in, you're going to face challenges along the way.
Um, I mean, this is classic hero's journey and she's really setting us up to, to take risks, to follow our dreams, to pursue our ambitions. I think, um, much like, uh, um, both Oprah and many other of the, of the. Absolute gurus of innovation that we've decoded. She has a pretty complete operating system to be successful that she's offering us.
Um, I, I find this just gets me really fired up about think, think big dream big and, and just go out and do it right. Yeah. And we've actually, we've got a great clip to, uh, to end on where she speaks about just that I do believe that women don't take enough risk. Not every woman, certainly some do, but. Same thing.
The men are just foot on the gas pedal career motivated. The data sells very clearly that at every stage starting in college and the high educated part of our workforce, men are more ambitious than women. And I really believe we're not going to close the achievement gap until we close the ambition gap.
And so the ambition gap has to do with risk. I think the most common mistake I see people make and men make this mistake too, but women do do a lot is they're too worried about the upward trajectory and not worried enough about growth. So the two corporate jobs I've taken, I went from treasury to Google and then I went from Google to Facebook, had one thing in common, which is that they were more junior other people's words, not mine than other jobs.
I was offered. When I went to Google, Google was like 250 people. I was going to be a business unit, general manager, except there were no business units. Susan would just skis here. She helped recruit me. This was the non-job of all time. I mean, there was no job there. And I was offered like senior sounding some more senior roles at more established companies, but I really believed in what Google was doing.
And Eric Schmidt gave me great career advice. He said, go for growth, growth moves everyone up. It's growing. It works. And so. I went to a smaller company with a very more junior, less defined job. You know, when I came out of Google, it, it seems obvious now to come to Facebook. But at the time a lot of people asked me, right?
You remember this? What are you doing? You're going to work for a 23 year olds. You know, no one knows if Facebook's going to be the next, you know, MySpace or Friendster. Like, and you're not CEO, you could be CEO somewhere else. And what I saw was something that mattered Facebook mattered, that's authentic identity and an opportunity for growth.
And so at each stage I've cared less about my level. I kind of think it's silly. Then I have about the underlying growth. And I do think this is really important for everyone to know, particularly women. Go for growth, huh? Well, I mean, and isn't it hilarious, Chad? She's like, uh, you know, when I was going to Google, everyone's like, what are you doing?
Or when I was going to, uh, Facebook, everyone's like, what are you doing that for? And with the benefit of hindsight, you're like, Oh, my gosh. That was like a no brainer. Yeah. She went to Google in 2001 when they only had 250 employees and she went to Facebook in 2007. Yeah. You know, they had only been in existence for three years, so she certainly bet on the right horses there.
If she starts to clip off, you know, giving an important message to the women in the audience, but I think you can extrapolate it to everyone in that really what we're doing as entrepreneurs is managing risk. I don't think entrepreneurs just take risks. I actually think an entrepreneur's job is to manage risk and great entrepreneurs manage that risk the best.
Yes. And so I love that she's. She's talking about that because I don't think a lot of entrepreneurs think about it in that way. People think entrepreneurship, even our fellow entrepreneurs think that it's like, Oh, well, we just have a great idea. And we go and we, and we do it. But I think that the core of it is, you know, managing that risk of.
Bringing that thing in, into the world, but pairing it with that big ambition and, and tying that ambition to growth, um, I think is really, really great kind of thread that she has woven into that journey that you're talking about, uh, that we go on as entrepreneurs. Yeah. I, I, I really think that she goes for growth and this is something that we can all do and yeah.
Because he is really tuned in to what she really wants to do in life, because she has the courage to make these steps. Those at the time, risky bets on Facebook and Google is still so funny to think about that being risky, right? Um, it's this inner purpose that helps it get across the line. It's this being vulnerable with friends, getting that support too, to really.
Uh, do things with the benefit of hindsight that looks so brilliant. Right. So, so damn brilliant. And I think that this is such a great reminder for us. Cheryl is teaching us be vulnerable and open with the people you trust. She's reminding us to dream big and have the courage to just do it as it's like a Nike ad.
She's like, just do it. Stop worrying and just do it right. Yeah. Yeah. I, I know I say this after every show, but it's just the. The intertwined universe of innovators and entrepreneurs is really just fascinating. And each new person that we bring into the fold always adds so much and also reinforces everything that we've learned.
And so I think the biggest lessons that I took away from digging into what Cheryl has been saying is. You need to build up that inner confidence to go after that thing that you really want to do. And part of that is creating the right environment for yourself and being that environment for others. And then this last clip go for growth and.
Go after that thing that you really want and raise your ambition. That's so true. Well said, well said. So we've learned so much from Cheryl. I mean, just to think that we've done a show on Mark Zuckerberg, a show on Sheryl Sandberg, that's the number one, number two, uh, executives at Facebook in reflection.
You kind of look at that and go, my gosh. Facebook is in good shape. It's in good hands. Like this will be a company that's going to go places. Right? I hope so. I hope with the two of them that they can do something during. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I'd be worried if, if they didn't now listen, Chad, um, obviously everyone can pick up all of our show notes from moonshots.io.
They can get all the goodies there. If you want to find us on any channel, just start with moonshots. Dot IO and you'll find us. I want to also quickly remind everyone we've got the live show, uh, coming up now. Um, let's just give people a date. That's much 17, if I'm not mistaken, is that correct? I thought it was looking at us.
Okay. When are we actually doing these shows? Oh, it could be. Yeah, because it's the 15th, 15th, uh, for Europe and the U S that will end up being the 18th for all my friends here in Sydney, Australia. Uh, we'll be doing a live show. There's going to be a massive audience. We're going to have three great guests.
On the next show. I think we can reveal who our guests are going to be. You'll be delighted to learn more about these guys, but talking about learning from great innovators. I think we're going to sneak in one more show before we head to Europe. Yeah. And I actually I'm tapped out for ideas. I, it was my idea for the Mark, Cheryl, one, two punch.
So I'm going to look to you, Mike, for inspiration for the next show. Okay. Okay. Uh, okay. Okay. Okay. Uh, well, so we've had a bit of a Facebook diff deep dive. Before that we did our, uh, design, a deep dive by the way, got lots of positive feedback about the design series. Chad, people are loving that. I'm looking at the list and I think there's two routes to go.
Uh, actually there's a couple, we we've certainly got all the Silicon Valley gurus. We've got, uh, Mark, the founder of Salesforce, Reed, the founder of Netflix. Uh, we've still got the big Steve jobs out there in the, on the list. We've got to get to some time, but what could be interesting is we've just done a double duo of.
You know, Zuckerberg and Sandberg from Facebook. Are you feeling maybe we could do another double Larry Page? Yeah, that'd be very interesting. Yeah, no, I love it. And you know, kind of reaching back into Cheryl's previous life too. Right. Yeah, she was very instrumental there and what's really cool about them.
They also had another, uh, renowned, uh, female entrepreneur, obviously Marissa Mayer. So there's a lot going on there. So we've got potentially, we could go on that Google route and then follow that up after the live show, maybe even do Marissa Mayer. When we returned from Europe. I think you just planned out the next month of production for us.
Like that sounds great. I love it. When a plan comes together. Okay. Uh, look, Chad, what a great show. Thank you to you. Thank you to all the people that have been chatting with me on Facebook as they watched the live broadcast. Uh, that's been super, um, I I've just got a friend who I, who I think lives in Hong Kong.
These days. It's just logged into the show from Hong Kong. So we were getting all four. Parts of the global continent, which is really, really exciting. Did you enjoy the, the, the Sheryl Sandberg, uh, lessons and the wisdom and inspiration, Chad? Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm showing up every week, Mike cause, uh, there's just so much to learn.
And, uh, I just wanted to say thanks again to all of our Watchers and listeners. Um yeah. And keep sending us your feed. Yeah. We love to hear from everyone. hello@moonshots.io is our email jump on the Facebook. Basically just go anywhere and you'll find us there under the moonshots. Pocast I've learned a ton for news.
I'm I'm all fired up. To, to step up and, and really just go for it after doing this, uh, shell show. And I'm really looking forward to doing Larry and Sergey from Google as another great founders story. Super smart guys. So much. So much to learn from those guys and the live show too. Oh my gosh. It's actually, are we going to sleep?
Chad is actually going to be sleeping between all of this. We don't need no stick and sleep. No sleep till Brooklyn. There you go. Beastie boys. Yeah, it was really funny. One of our listeners from the show, great friend of mine, uh, I was having lunch with, and he's like, Mike, how, how do you do all of this?
And I'm starting to see, I'm asking the same question myself. I'm asking the same question. Um, look, Chad, thank you ever so much. Thank you to all of our listeners. I hope you can have a great evening in Brooklyn. Are you going to kick back and cook up a storm with the misses? No she's out of town for work.
So I'm going to sit back, relax and watch a movie for once. Hey, there you go. That sounds awesome. Well, on that note, I want to say thank you to you, Chad. Thank you to all our listeners. It's been great to learn more, to be inspired, and we look forward to seeing you next week on the moonshots podcast.
That's a wrap.