james clear

episode 109

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Welcome to dementia. It's podcast. It's episode 109. I'm your cohost Mike Parsons. And I am joined by the guy. Who's got lots of atomic. Rituals and behaviors and habits. It is the one and only by Pearson Freeland. Good morning, Mike. Uh, you are clearly very clear-headed today and ready to think about a habits on you.

I am in the mood for habits and rituals and routines, which is. Just very appropriate for our rising star series. Isn't it? It is. It is. We've had already some fantastic individuals that we've delved into in the rising star series. We had the first lady, Michelle Obama. We had the ice man himself. Mr. VIM Hoff, [00:01:00] as well as a man that just cannot be hurtful stopped.

Maybe we should nickname him the Terminator. I'm not sure. Mr. David Goggins. But today, Mike, we're taking it into a level of habit, formation, cerebral approaches and mindsets with mr. James Clear. Now I really I'm, I'm totally into this whole habit thing. Um, and we've talked a lot on the show about, you know, my perfect morning, even on weekends, cold shower, espresso stretch foam roller, right.

Do some journaling. I mean, that to me is my attempt to be a bit better every single day. And that's what really strikes me about James clear is he brings some very ancient thinking. Long-term thinking, uh, compounding thinking and [00:02:00] behaviors, which is just such a perfect antidote to this world of instant gratification.

He's like habits are a lifestyle and big things can start with small beginnings. How good, how good Mark? Uh, yeah, I mean, atomic habits for me is such a powerful book. And actually the habit series was such a powerful series for me because it did reveal exactly as you point out the short versus long-term thinking it's very easy to fall into a, uh, potentially bad behavior.

Um, and, and, and as we know, changing behaviors takes a lot of time. It's very easy to adopt. Maybe a bad habit. There's actually a lot harder to adopt a good one. And where atomic habits was so powerful for me at least was okay. Well, if I start something today and I have, since, since the, uh, the James clears show.

Um, I remember speaking about it a lot on the [00:03:00] podcast, but I've managed to finally do it and I've begun journaling. And I do, I journal, um, once or twice, most days, and it began quite slow, but now the, the joy I actually get from it is, is incredible. And that has now become. This, this habit that got formulated through very small instances, I didn't jump into it thinking, Hey, I'm going to write my life story, or I'm going to write the next bestseller.

That's not my intention instead. It's I just want to observe a few things and incrementally write a few thoughts down. And I believe that's really where atomic habits (buy on Amazon) spoke to me. Yeah, I think, um, this whole idea of you, uh, we live in the world where everything comes instantly, whether it's Amazon or our Uber eats, like we have no patients, right.

We're [00:04:00] in like this real time economy. And I think the danger is that we can get a little entitled. We're not prepared to earn things. And we talk a lot about being the best version of yourself and what truly amazes me is simple habits. Like get to bed early, wake up early, have a cold shower, right? Your intentions before you start the day, uh, all these little habits.

The difference. I feel when I do them and when I don't is massive and it's about letting them compound over days, weeks, months, and years. But the thing is this ancient wisdom is so contradictory. To the world that we're in. I think one of the reasons that our show on James clear was so popular and people love the habits series is it's.

You have [00:05:00] to work harder on your habits when we have a so many distractions. So many things taking our attention. We have to be intentional about how we want to live and habits are the key. And to me, ma that was the huge breakthrough of breaking down the work of James clear in his book, atomic habits.

What about yeah. That patients, the patients to know it's not going to be overnight, but I can get there gradually over time was see a seriously big takeaway for me as well. It was, it was a great series. And I particularly like the James clear, um, delve delving that we did because of the ability to just deal those complex topics, such as habits into small things that you and I can do daily, similar to you.

I, I like to exercise once a day, no matter what it is, walking or otherwise. And I do. I feel much better because of it when [00:06:00] I've managed to accomplish that, let's make the case for it. When, how do you feel when you, you, you, you, you have your habits that you let's just stay with the morning, you have your habits.

How do you feel when you don't do them? Well, a couple of a couple of words and it's going to be pretty controversial. One of them is guilty. Yeah. I feel pretty guilty sometimes when I don't accomplish it, but I also don't feel awake. I don't feel like I'm, I'm operating my best way once I've, maybe it's journaled something down.

Maybe it's, uh, something as small as, I don't know, as you're having a cold shower as well. Doing some exercise gradually that's me awakening my body, getting my mind into the right gear so that I can tackle the day in the best possible way, and also be the best version of myself in a good mood, receptive and, uh, collaborative.

[00:07:00] Because when I don't do that, I'm a little bit more introverted, maybe a little bit more. Uh, grumpy perhaps. Uh, yeah. And I need to do those little incremental 1% habits to accomplish the, the best version of myself I find. Yeah. My thing is I just feel so sluggish, right. Um, I'm a bit, um, in Australia we'd say feeling a little dusty, a little bit dusty, the sluggish.

Yeah. And, and so for me, what is so exciting is when you want to adopt these behaviors, not just during the week, but on your weekends too, they make me feel so good. That I just do them all the time. And actually just to, just to build on that, I remember from, from, uh, James, Claire, the reassuring fact that if you do set yourself those little [00:08:00] goals running once a day or once a week, uh, journaling once a week, whatever it might be, there's small incremental moments.

It, it kind of allows you to not overwhelm yourself. You know, going back to your insight about the instant gratification, if I'm expecting to be the fastest man in Sydney, it's going to, I'm going to be pretty demotivated pretty quick, because I'm certainly not the fastest man. And the reason why I was so gravitate.

I, so gravitated towards Jens clear in his work was because it's reassuring to know, okay. These things take time, invest in yourself. And gradually become a little bit more confident, a little bit more experienced and a little bit more, um, courageous, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think to kind of wrap it, wrap it all up, you know, a lot of our audience, uh, [00:09:00] those listeners are all tuning in because they're trying to.

Motivate or inspire themselves and find some practical tips on being better. And the last thought I'd give you, is that what James clear points out is? We so often say I'm going to be 10000% better at this. I'm going to be the world's best and it's going to be in a ridiculously short time. And then when we try, we realize.

Well, we're not really on track for that. And then we give up because we're disheartened, he presents to us this amazingly ancient yet powerful thinking, just be 1% better every day, every week, every month, every year. And before you know, it you'll be on the other side, you'll be witnessed to you realizing your.

Very best self your, your true potential. And I think that is what is so good because it can start with just one small habit today. [00:10:00] That's it? That's all you've got to start with and just keep getting better. Well, Mark, I feel like it's time to jump into the James. Alicia, what do you think I'm feeling atomic and I'm ready to go.

Me too. All right. Let's jump in to our show, uh, on the book, atomic habits, by James clear each the cast, a vote for the type of person that you want to become. And if you cast enough votes for that type of identity, you start to believe that about yourself, right? Like if you go to church for 20 years, you believe that you are religious, you study Spanish every Tuesday for 30 minutes, you believe that you were studious.

Um, so in that way, your habits provide evidence of your desired identity. And I think that that is probably the ultimate reason that habits are so important. It's true. Like how does can help you or money or be more productive or lose weight, um, and all that stuff. It was great. But in addition to the external results that have us provide, they also shape your sense of self.

So they like are the, the engine or the Avenue through [00:11:00] which you learned things about yourself. Like sometimes people will say stuff like fake it till you make it, but fake it till you make it is asking yourself to believe something without evidence for it. And you can do that for a little while. You can do it for a day or a week, but eventually, I mean, there's a word for beliefs that don't have evidence behind them delusion.

Right. And if you're diluting yourself, then eventually you give up on that. But the power of doing a better habit each day or casts. A little vote for that type of person. Is that now you have evidence to ruin your belief in I've done six months. Yeah. Right. I mean, now you have a lot of evidence that you're a podcaster or a good interviewer, you know, like you do this over and over again.

Each time you cast a vote for believing that about yourself and you don't just. So you're delusional believing that you're a good interviewer it's because you've shown up and done it hundreds of times. Right. Um, and so I think that that's true for any habit, large or small that they provide evidence of the desired identity or the type of person that you are starting the show with a great revealing [00:12:00] clip, defining what is a habit for me.

I, I like James is, um, referenced to the fake it till you make it, uh, Added. I think we've all, we're all familiar with that, but what James is totally out of here, which for me is, is really, really nice is that, um, empowerment rather than faking it, which ultimately is vague. Instead take ownership yourself and start to believe.

In what you're trying to do, you know, reminds me a little bit of Mark Cuban telling us about passion and how you don't necessarily go out and be disappointed if you haven't reached your dream job instead, make what you're doing right now, that passion. And I think I'm starting to see that little bit of, uh, uh, symbiosis, I think, with, with what James, Claire is saying here, which is, you know, give yourself.

The evidence that you can make it by creating that new positive habit [00:13:00] he's yet to build on that. I think what he's really connecting is that the behavior supports the belief, which supports the behavior, which supports the belief. And you get this compounding where you keep repeating positive behaviors that give you a more positive belief in yourself.

I mean, it's just the classic one. When you know, you should go to the gym, you're a bit tired, but you go and you feel good after. Yes, you've got that. Post-workout buzz going, but somewhere deep inside us, we somehow prove to ourselves. We are the person we thought where we are. We did put in the effort and we can yeah.

Enjoy the reward. I saw, I think there's a really powerful thing that even if you just say you're starting on a workout routine, you want to get a bit healthy and you just say, I'm going to walk for 10 minutes a day. Um, knowing that you did that [00:14:00] supports the belief. That you can and want to be a healthy person.

And then, you know, what is, this is so good. What w we're going to discover over the rest of the show is this becomes quite a continuum journey. And maybe the following week, you sound, I'm going to work for 11 minutes or maybe 12 minutes and do this 1% better every day. Every week, time after time, and the results can be so transformative.

And what's so beautiful about this market is it's just breaking down such big lofty ambitions goals and just making it a practical thing that you can do today. And I think that is just a taste of what's to come, uh, throughout the show where we've got a lot of mindset, a lot of behavior tips getting into some of the data, some are some of their research.

So [00:15:00] if you're out there listening, you should dig into this because it is, um, just. There's just so much good stuff here. Yeah. I'm a big James clear fan and I'm hoping that we can learn out loud together no matter where you are around the world. And, uh, we, we keep having new listeners joining us from all around the world.

We have three new countries that have started tuning into the show, getting us onto the top hundred chats. What global United nations are we building him? Who do we welcome to the show today? This week, where a welcoming in with open arms, all of our listeners from Mexico, Austria, and Slovakia. Thank you so much for listening to us, everybody.

We really, really love. Seeing your different, uh, cities and countries appearing on our map every week, every couple of days. [00:16:00] And it's only down to you, our listeners add spreading the word, sharing the episodes, but also leaving us a friendly rating or review or getting in touch with us. We'd love to hear more about this.

And let's be honest. We have to put the challenge out to our listeners. We have some of the most amazing listeners around the world with crazy, crazy, uh, handles and use the tags. I think beef bull ya'll he? I mean, he's, he's in the clear lead, but are there any other great user names, uh, from all the recent feedback that we've had that stick in your mind?

Mark? For me, it was a, a very, uh, lovely listener from Bhutan, uh, dragon on wheels. He got dragging against my, uh, my vote personally. I know what gets my vote is, uh, this intersection between mind and body. So no matter whether you're in Mexico, [00:17:00] Austria Slovakia or anywhere on this wonderful planet. Let's dive into the world of author James clear, and his book, atomic habits.

Let's give a nod to the sat of our previous shows in half. Let's see about one of my absolute favorite topics, which is the relationship between mind and body. I think there are a few core habits that are going to serve everybody and certainly served me well. So exercise is a huge one. Um, I don't do it daily, but I exercise, I train four times a week and I feel like if I didn't exercise, I don't know that I would be an entrepreneur.

Like, I don't know if I could handle the psychological rollercoaster without the physical outlet or the release. You probably feel that as like an athlete too, for being an athlete for so many years, I feel like I need to push myself physically. In addition to mentally, if it's just mental, it doesn't. Do it for me, I need to have a physical outlet.

So exercise, exercise is one. The other ultimate and meta habit is reading because if you build a habit of reading, [00:18:00] you can solve pretty much any other problem. You know, you want to learn how to be a better podcast, or you can read about that. You want to learn how to meditate. You can read about that. You want to learn how to make more money.

You can read about that. Um, and so what you need is to develop a habit of reading and then whatever problem you're facing at the time, you can, you have a method for solving that. The interconnectedness, the formula, the equation of physical plus mental. I, it reminds me when I was growing up, um, where instead of forcing yourself to revise, to read books, to write essays, and it's still true in my career and work life at the moment, forcing myself to write maybe pictures or consider products.

You've got to balance that. Without a physical, uh, exercise or whether it's, well, it could be in a number of different ways, but almost that it kind of exhaust. You've got to put everything of your mind into a product, into a bit of work [00:19:00] into a deliverable, but at the same time, balance it with focusing your body at, you know, getting rid of that energy as well and feels very, very.

Um, appropriate to parrot, you know, James plays book along with him as he went out because whim was very focused on body mind, and James is giving us these good tips on creating new habits. It feels like a great, great little pad. Hmm. I must say that, that the thing about exercise is it, um, directly relates to how you think like, Don't you have the feeling Mark that after you've done some really good aerobic exercise, don't you just feel, feel more clearheaded.

Well, that brings me back to last week's episode. You said after a good cold shower, you have this feeling of electricity running through your body. And [00:20:00] for me, I get that when I've exercised, as I'm sure a lot of our listeners do. When you've been for a long run or you've done some great hot yoga or some stretching, even you've got all that blood moving around your body.

And I believe that that's what stimulates your brain into problems, more finding good solutions. And I personally, I don't know about you, Mike, but I don't think I'm at my best when I haven't exercised in the morning. Totally. I totally agree. Do you get grumpy when you don't exercise in the morning? Like by lunchtime, you just grumpy?

Yeah. I actually feel pretty sluggish. If anything, ironic. I feel more tired in the morning or during the day when I haven't reached out. Yes, I do two. So at a minimum, for me, it would be about. Trying to fit in 20 minutes of stretching and [00:21:00] using the roll if I can't, for whatever reason, exercise, uh, due to time constraints.

Um, but for me, the other thing, apart from exercise, giving you a clear mind, so you can think better. Uh, you can read more. I think the other big thing is I feel that it is a key component to dealing with the stress of meeting deadlines, uh, solving complexity, working in large teams, across different countries.

To me, it's also sharp mind, but like I'm just more Chilmark. Mm. Yeah. Well, anxiety, stress. Those are all forms of energy. Um, you know, you haven't, you haven't burned the way that I like to think about it. It's almost like you're simmering down a pot of, you know, sauce when you were putting it on the stove for a while.

It's sort of allows to evaporate off for me. I think of my body in a. In a similar way, uh, [00:22:00] listeners, please bear with me. As I tried to explain what I mean, if I haven't been on the burn, so to speak, if I haven't been burning energy through exercise, whether it's stretching or running or whatever, um, I feel like I'm still full of that.

Negative energy or anxiety, stress, feelings of being overwhelmed. And I totally agree for me. Exercise is the way to expel that, to put it into positive. Yeah. I love this idea that you you're talking about, like switching bad energy to good energy and just burning it, simmering off that bad energy and, um, The great thing about James clear is he's got thoughts on how to actually attack and go after bad habits.

And do you know the crazy thing is, um, you know, he, he talks about breaking bad habits and I'm, I'm so, so obsessed with positive habits that I have. I haven't spent [00:23:00] nearly enough time thinking about bad habits. So let's jump in to author James clear and find, hang out about bad habits and how we can deal with them.

We actually have like three options for breaking bad habits. So the first option is to reduce exposure. Um, so something like, you know, if you want to stop spending so much money on electronics, then don't follow all the latest tech review blogs, you know, like your, or if you want to lose weight, don't follow a bunch of food bloggers on Instagram.

Um, you're constantly being triggered by that and having to like overcome the prompts now that doesn't always work, but if you can cut a habit off at the. The source than a lot of the time, like the craving won't arise naturally. So in atomic habits, in the book, I talk a little bit about this woman who she smoked while she was in college and she would always smoke or riding horses with a friend.

And so eventually at some point she quit smoking and she's also stopped, you know, like seeing that friend and graduate college and so on. Wasn't riding horses. And then like 10 years later, she got back on a horse for the first time and suddenly craved a cigarette. [00:24:00] And, um, she was like, what is going on here?

And it's. Your habits are often tied to a context they're tied to a situation or some kind of cue. And so if you can reduce exposure to that cue, then in many cases, the craving won't arise. So that's the first option for bringing about habit. The second option, which kind of sucks, but is like to sit with the craving long enough to like, let this wave of desire.

Ride itself out. And so you basically just resist temptation. Um, it's possible. It's easier if, um, if your hand is forced, if you use what I call a commitment device. So brief story real quick, Victor Hugo, um, famous author who were like hunchback Notredame and a bunch of other things. Well, When he got the book deal for a hunchback of Notre Dame, he just procrastinated for like a year.

He hosts a bunch of house. Parties has friends over. He went traveling for a little while. He did like, he got the book deal. He did nothing, no work. Um, and eventually his publisher got pissed off. They were like, you know, can you please like actually work on this? And so they set this ultimatum for him and I said, [00:25:00] uh, We're going to, we're going to cancel the book in six months if you don't have it done by then.

And so he, um, he got his assistant to come in and put all his clothes into a chest and they locked him up and took him out of the house. And the only thing he was left with was like this, the shawl, this like large robe. So basically he had no clothes that were suitable for hosting guests. Or for leaving the house or like going on trips or anything else.

So more or less put himself on house arrest. Um, and what ended up happening was each time procrastination arose. He was able to kind of sit with that feeling and let it ride because he didn't really have many other options and then get back to work on the book and it ended up working. He got the book done like two weeks early, but things like that, where you can lock in your future action and it becomes really hard to.

Go to your friend's party or go out to travel to a different place or whatever. Um, just because you don't have the option, if you can increase the friction, then sometimes you can sit with the craving of a bad habit and let it ride know. I, I you're right, again, back to your point before that last clip, Mike, [00:26:00] it's quite confronting when we think about our bad habits, because they can be anything from having your friends around to regularly, or, you know, Not focusing on the problem for enough time and being distracted.

I mean, I like what James Claire's telling us here in terms of addressing them. Um, but it's, it's sort of a challenge to actually figure out what they are. Yeah. So, so my first reaction to that clip is I certainly see myself, um, doing things like I will block out a morning. Um, Together with you or an evening with one of the team in Europe.

If we, if we've got a deliverable coming up and I feel like, really need to get set into something, um, like I'll just cancel everything and just go date. And this idea of protecting myself from interruption, [00:27:00] I'm locking myself away in the study to produce work when required is definitely a habit. Uh, that I've created in order to avoid getting distracted or, or whatever, but let's try and go a little bit diva.

Uh, let's think about how we work. Um, and I've, I've not really done the exercise of thinking about something that I do at work, which is. Bad habits, something that is, um, calling, uh, calling myself out. And I mean, blown away when James clear was telling that story of the woman getting back on the horse, wasn't that crazy 10 years later, she hasn't had a cigarette and she gets on a whole cravings instantly.

The crazy you, the context, I mean, to help, um, to help you, um, Yeah, I'll, I'll turn the mic on myself for a second for me when I'm at work. [00:28:00] And I think there's actually bridges a little bit to that first example with the lady on the horse, when I'm in a stressful situation at work, my bad habit would be to point mental fingers and I'll think, ah, I feel under pressure.

I feel stress whose fault is it? And I. I think that the behavior that I have is thinking, okay, well it must be so-and-so or it must be person over there, or maybe it's a partner or whatever it might be that, that I think is my bad habit. And that's my initial gut reaction. Yeah. I suffer. I suffer from, from that one and maybe.

Um, being too quick to judge, which has been something I've always struggled with. So let's work out this, this, you know, blaming others, judging others, like how would we. What would [00:29:00] we do if we were to follow James Clear's recommendation? Cause he had some pretty clear points there. Yeah. I liked the context one.

So when we're experiencing a cue or a context similar to, for getting back on the horse and for, for my example, it would be in a stressful situation, maybe a deadline is looming or the deliverables aren't quite right. Instead of me pointing a mental finger, I think. The proactive way of turning that negative energy into a slightly better habit would be okay, well, that's fine.

This is where we are. How can I improve it? What can I do now to raise it up a little bit and not in, in that example, uh, star piling with my friends and not writing the hunchback of not to dam or starting to smoke instead, what's the proactive thing that I can do. So recognizing that context is first [00:30:00] step.

Yeah. And I think one of the things I try to do with, you know, judgment and is I really try to say, say, okay, what can I do to change the situation? Um, and something I've mentioned before is I always try and go, okay. Like if I was their manager or they coach, uh, What advice would I give to the person in order to help them, um, as well.

And I think learning these sorts of ways to break bad habits. I think another one would be just before you say and do anything, um, you know, one of the famous, uh, Roman emperors was given the advice of before making a decision, say the alphabet, just to force him not to just, just, you know, Immediately jump off into a decision, but forcing them to pause and think, um, it's interesting because I find this quite disruptive and [00:31:00] it it's a real note to self to spend more time really asking myself, what am I bad habits?

And you know, how, how do I start to identify them? And how do I address them? I, I think that the boldest and scariest thing would be to ask others much like yourself to say, Hey, What are the bad habits? Come on, hit me, hit me with them. Um, I think that's gotta be. That's going to be a good start. Yeah, absolutely.

And, um, listeners out there, maybe if you're feeling inspired by James and empowered by what, what atomic habits, as, as goddess learning, feel free to send us a very honest email to hello@moonshots.io. We won't call you out. Don't worry. Um, but if you'd like to put it into action and write something down, feel free to get in touch because we'd love to hear from you.

Yeah, thank you. So let's, let's now think about the [00:32:00] next step in this process. We've awakened the mind and body we've identified some bad habits, but now it's kind of starting to move into how can we master this and. What's really interesting about James K is he points out that experience has a really big role to play in how we build our expertise.

So let's have a listen now to author James clear talking about experience. The way you develop expertise is by writing about it every week. So I wrote a new article about habits every Monday and Thursday for three years. And that was how I developed the expertise on the topic. By writing about it, you search, you said, here's what I found.

Here's what I tried. Here's what worked, what didn't work combination of me reading the scientific literature and reading the research and then trying to distill practical insights from that and testing things out in my own life. As a weightlifter, a travel photographer, a writer, an entrepreneur. Seeing what [00:33:00] that looks like.

And then the two together, I think you need both, like, I don't want to be some new age version of an academic who's in an ivory tower, just like theorizing about ideas. It's different, what it looks like to put ideas into practice, right? Like, imagine you're a peak performance coach and you show up a coach like an NBA team.

These guys are like, dude, you need stuff on the quarter. If you know what the right to see what it's actually like. Hmm. Intention and hard work. That's a, it's funny that the clip ends similar to what you were saying, Mike, about thinking as a manager, as a, as a team or coach, you know, that that's funny that the clip ends like that actually.

So we'll come back to that. But for me, that glimpse all around. If you've got a clear intention and you're not afraid to work hard, that's when you can achieve expertise, it's that experience putting in the yards, so to speak that gets you into that level. Yeah. And to break it down even further, he's basically doing a test and learn prototype, um, [00:34:00] sort of mental model here, which is, you know, read the theory, but then you have to go and apply it.

And I think that, you know, habits are all uniquely personal. For example, I, uh, I've seen a lot of these, a habit forming habit apps. And you know, if we're building a product that kind of calls on some of this, I'll go and play with them. But for me, all I need is a to do list, which is simply a task man manager, your to do list.

And I just have recurring daily. To do items in there and that's all I need for habit. For me, others respond well to writing things down. Some people have positive affirmations. Some people have these. Um, you know, fancy, uh, apps, whatever works is, is my philosophy, but I think he's challenged to us is good.

I read all the Simon Sinek's and James CLIs in the world have a deliberate effort to [00:35:00] test the ideas in your real life. So I love it that he was riding on Mondays and Thursdays, but he would read the theory and then test it for a couple of days and come back and write more around that theory and sort of, I think that.

Is a very powerful lesson. If you're going to build a habit, read, get some inspiration, but then run all your little mini tests, uh, pilot projects and, you know, tweak away and find tuner, make it iterative. I think that's the core factor. Yeah, totally. I mean, for me, I've taken inspiration from. The way that we use to do this in our work lives, I've done a similar thing to you.

I've set up a daily reminder to myself to exercise too. Right. And actually as an observation, I'm probably ticking off a lot more of the exercise piece, but less so of the writing piece. So when I say writing, I mean journal, and actually for me, what I've realized is [00:36:00] maybe this isn't the best way to do it.

I've tested it for a couple of weeks. And I haven't stuck to it. So now what I'm going to be looking for is maybe there is a different way to inspire or drive my focus around our idea. Now what's very powerful about these days daily experiences these days, you know, getting into this ritual and habit design of doing every day is that if you do have this it's written down, I'm just going to do these five things every single day.

I got to stretch and I do yoga. I'm going to read for half an hour. Yeah. Whatever it is. What's really interesting is when you've had a really busy day, um, and you just returned to the list. What's very powerful for me is I'll often go to this list and I've been using this practice for you. I, I get back to the list and go, Oh, I didn't do this.

Or I forgot to do this. Or the beauty is that. I can always return to the list, [00:37:00] remind me of the daily experiences that I want to have the daily rituals that I want to build. So it's this ultimate backup, um, because you can just return to the list. And I think if you really want to be in this for the long term, um, you've got to.

Practice it daily and have the right tools that remind you that prompt you, that trigger you to make your habit daily. This, this is really key because what happens is that you become so addicted to it much like the exercise in the morning thing, the culture in the morning thing or whatever your ritual is when you don't do it.

You really miss it. And then you realize how much it positively informs your state of mind. And if we want to talk about state of mind, the one thing Mark is James clear makes the point that this is a long-term game that we're playing, right? Oh, absolutely. And we'll, we'll come on to a great clip. Um, [00:38:00] later on that definitely reinforces that, but.

What will, uh, what we'll listen into now is James Claire telling us a little bit about how we can, um, challenge ourselves right now. So similar to what you were just say, Mike, how do we, uh, change our behaviors day to day and how do we inspire ourselves to new behaviors? So this is, uh, James, Claire telling us about how to change the game and stay stimulated.

So occasionally, and this is true for everybody. We live long enough. Life will come for you at some point, right? Like something's going to happen. So occasionally life will stress you, but when life doesn't change and you, I think it's important to challenge yourself because otherwise you're just living in this optimal environment, air conditioning, and you know, everything else is super easy.

You can get all the information in the world at your fingertips. You never have to, like, if you think about how crazy just eating is in the modern world. So previously when we lived in tribes, you. You had to expend energy to get calories, um, at a minimum you [00:39:00] were foraging for berries, but otherwise you probably had to like run something down and kill it, or part of a Groupon or other things.

Now you can get better calories without expending. Any, all you have to do is just tap like Uber eats on your phone or something, it'll show up at your door. Um, and you can just sit on the couch, which is of course, like a recipe for poor health, but also just. The game has completely changed. Now we've transcended a lot of our evolutionary programming and natural, um, situations.

And so you need to be careful about designing that to serve you rather than to work against you, because it can very easily nudge you in the other way. That is so good. Now, this is really interesting because this directly relates to VIM Hoff, but this is sort of a new. Emerging idea that we're seeing in the habit design series.

And I really liked this idea. I want to explore more, which is James clear is basically [00:40:00] telling us it's actually really worth having a healthy tension. In your life. It's, um, very good to be challenging yourself, having some stretch goals, making yourself a bit uncomfortable. I loved this analogy of like, you can literally without expand, expanding single calorie, you can order a ton of calories.

And if you compare that to the effort that caveman went to in order, just to get a few berries or to hunt down some meat, the point here for me, Is what I have this growing awareness of. And I really relate to it is so seeing, um, actually incorporating healthy stretch goals, that challenge you, that make you a bit uncomfortable.

So you're learning. And I think Joe Rogan said it really well embrace the discomfort. And, uh, as, as Jane's clear, painted that picture of the zero calorie acquisition of calories, I mean, [00:41:00] It's so true, but I'm wondering what is this? Got you thinking on how you might keep challenging yourself. Get out of the, as James clear would say, get out of the air conditioning for a moment, uh, burn some calories to get some, how do you process this into something you might do to keep challenging yourself, man?

Yeah, it's true. Challenges come in a lot of way, ways, I guess. And I think. You know, similar to the, to the list that I mentioned a minute ago, exercise and writing. I think the writing piece seems for me, at least a little bit uncomfortable because I don't really know what I'm doing. I wouldn't know where to start.

Maybe it's a little bit too personal or revealing, but actually to use, to coin your phrase, the stretch goals, that's exactly what it is. It's learning something new, whether it's something I do personally or something I do during my day to day work, you know, all of these, I love the idea of creating daily goals [00:42:00] that make me feel uncomfortable, exercise.

I loved exercising, so I'm happy to tick that off most days, but actually having have repeating moments of my day, that challenge me. That that feels pretty exciting, actually. Uncomfortable.

Um, you know, I have a, take an uncomfortable conversation off the list, or, um, spend 30 minutes learning something really, really hard that you've been putting off. And there's a whole self accountable to actually finish a task. I think there's really something in simple. Manchez like listened to it song every day, you know, read one news analysis or opinion piece a day.

Um, just small things you could do every single day just to stimulate the, uh, the [00:43:00] neurons to, uh, To get all the atoms moving around is James clear would want, I think this idea of challenging, keeping yourself really challenged with stretch goals. I mean, obviously one of the things a lot of our listeners might see this in is it's.

The classic thing is when the grandparents or the parents retire and they're not introducing any challenge into their life anymore, their will becomes a bit small. And on the opposite side, when you meet. A retiree who's out there exercising, contributing to society, socializing, the stark difference you see in people like that, maybe that's one use case.

I think the other thing is when you see people who've been in roles for years, maybe decades and who are so comfortable that they are almost bored. Right. Um, So I think it's all about trying to find some balance between the [00:44:00] healthy stretch goals, you know, and giving your time is so to yourself to rejuvenate.

Um, if there was one thing you could start doing each day tomorrow, that would be something new, introduced a little bit of stretch for yourself. What do you think that would be for you if you were to get inspired by James clear? And it's a good one. It's a good one. I think. It's gotta be, uh, current affairs, perhaps.

So staying a little bit more on top of maybe it's politics, maybe it's business ideas, something that's a little bit, um, less than I'm. I'm quite okay with reading articles that interest me as I'm sure everybody is, but maybe a very, very simple addition to my day. That would take maybe less than five minutes is to read a couple of articles from a website that I wouldn't normally go to.

Maybe it's, well, maybe it's more political. That seems to me very, very easy to achieve. [00:45:00] Um, and quite nice to slip into the routine. It's funny you say that because I would like to. Read more, uh, business, uh, news and analysis. Um, and my problem is just that I have a ritual of adding articles to my Instapaper to read later.

And then my Instapaper reading list is like worse than my Netflix watch lists. It's just. Chock a block of things that, uh that's. So I'm going to try that too. So, um, while we're busy trying to read up on and the affairs of the world, where should all of our wonderful listeners, where should they go? If they want to tune into our back catalog, uh, connect to our social, get our newsletter, where a nurse, should they go?

You want to hear Mike and I talk about some tips and tricks and cover a lot of very interesting innovators and what they've got to teach [00:46:00] us head on over to www.moonshots.io for all of our archive shows. At this point, you'll find 84 jam packed episodes. And, uh, how all of them have transcriptions show nodes, all sorts of mantras.

There's a heap of content online that you'll find@moonshots.io. Sounds sounds wonderful. So just to set the stage, we've had, um, like powerhouse, um, five clips in a row. They're all about behavior and mindset change. We've had this awakening between mind and body we've tackled some of those nasty habits. I mean, that story of that woman getting back on a horse 10 years later and craving a cigarette was.

Ridiculous. And what we've also discovered is we've got to practice. We can't just read the theory. We've got to practice it. And if we do that, we'll be on the way up. And as we're sending, we [00:47:00] should never stop. Always keep challenging yourself. Introducing new behaviors, new habits. Cool. Now we're going to segue into a world of study research and some data and some great, um, analysis that James clear has done around habit design.

And what's interesting about James clear is he's very similar to Jim Collins, who we recently did on the show, um, in going to the data, going to the research. And this is, seems to be a big theme to the best authors. It doesn't matter. It really does. Jim Collins, as well as Adam Grant, you know, taking a look at a lot or in a Brown Brown.

Exactly. I, I think I'm getting the impression that we love data don't we love it when our innovators don't just have a point of view or they back it up with loads and loads of data. So the next section of the show, we're going to listen to a couple of experiments and studies. [00:48:00] Uh, James clear as, as, uh, unveiled and then looked into to draw some of his insights and comparisons.

So in the first one, we're going to check out it's all about, uh, keeping control by planning ahead. So we're going to hear James Taylor, a little bit of a story about how to make sure you set the intention in order to make that change. One of my favorite studies is about exercise and they had three cohorts in this study.

So they have first cohort. They said, I just want you to track how often you work out for the next few weeks. Right. And so that's the, um, standard cohort. The control group second group is that we want you to track off and you exercise. We're also going to give you a motivation, motivational speech presentation.

Talk about the benefits of heart health, why habits are good for you and so on. So this is the motivated group, right? The third group. They got the same presentation. So they're equally motivated and then they did one thing differently. And that one thing was, they filled out. This sentence is a during the next week, I will partake in at least 20 minutes of vigorous exercise on this day, in this time, [00:49:00] at this time in this place, right.

They specifically stated their intention to implement the behavior. So implementation intention. Here's what happened. First group one out of three of them worked out. The second group motivation did nothing. As soon as they left the researcher's facility, the next day they were motivated. It's like reading a book or watching YouTube or listening to a motivational speaker.

And then you forget all about it 20 minutes later. Um, but the third group, the group that has specific plan for how they were going to implement the behavior. Nine out of 10 of them worked out. So you can increase your odds of success. Two to three X having a specific plan. And this is the insight. Many people think that they lack motivation when what they really lack is clarity.

They think that they need to get more money motivated that they need willpower in order to execute on a habit. If I just felt like writing, if I just felt like meditating and I felt like working out, then I would do it. But in fact, they don't have a plan for it. And so they wake up each day thinking, I wonder if I'll feel motivated to write today.

Wonderful. Feel motivated to work out today, but instead you can take this. Decision making out of it by explicitly stating when, where, and [00:50:00] how you to implement the habit. It sounds easy to say, let's just start a plan. Let's, you know, write down exactly what you should do, and then maybe you'll fall through on it.

But of course we all know that there are challenges that arise. It's not quite that easy. So here's a little strategy that I like to use to make sure you can come up with a better plan of action and it's called a failure. Premortem so the way that it works is you think about the habit, the project, a goal, whatever the most important thing is that you want to work on.

Then I want you to imagine fast forward, six months from now, and you failed. And then tell the story of why you failed. What happened? What challenges did you encounter? What was it that took you off course? Um, when I do this with businesses, sometimes we call it the kill, the company exercise. Cause everybody just sits around and thinks about ways to kill the company in the next six months.

And once you have all that stuff, Stuff laid out on the table in front of you. You can start to make better choices about how to develop a plan. You can start to have if then plan. So not only do I want to exercise for 20 minutes on Monday at 5:00 PM, but also if I do not exercise because I have to take my kid to practice or whatever, then Tuesday morning at 7:00 AM, I will go in, right.

You can [00:51:00] have ways to adjust for these challenges. Wow, Mark. I believe this is. I dunno if we are going to have a formal award for clipper their show, but this one, Oh man, this is this, one's the real deal. Let, let me, let me riff on this one for a bit. I completely see myself in this story that James cleaves, ho simple example, I was running to two days ago and I realized after 30 minutes of running.

That I hadn't decided before how long I would run for. And then I was like, Oh, well, will I do 45 minutes or an hour? I'm not sure. Um, and what's really interesting is how this kind of put me in a flux because. It's a [00:52:00] simple decision, but it was about the intention. Um, and it was really interesting just to be jogging and going, Oh, having a little running crisis here.

Is it 45 or an hour, but I'll tell you where I really really see this is the night before I need to do something to deliver something. I always do it best. I always perform at my best and get the job done. When I make a clear intention the night before, if I do anything before lunchtime, tomorrow, I will deliver XYZ.

And here's the interesting thing. I noticed a little, uh, side effects because if I really manifest this intention, maybe writing it down, planning my agenda, whatever it takes. I will wake naturally at an [00:53:00] early time, because somehow deep in my subconscious, I have laid this intention. And so what I notice is when I don't do that is maybe I sleep a little longer or maybe I'll allow other things to get in before I do this main thing.

Like I procrastinate. So it's so powerful as a practice. To say to yourself, what's the one thing I'm going to do tomorrow. And if you focused on that before wrapping up for the night, chilling out and then hitting bed, if you really manifest that intention, you'll be amazed at what happens in the morning.

You're like a freight train is getting the job done. And I can tell you, Mark, I don't always remember to do this. I don't always get it right. And I see. The difference. It's all about the intention. How did you process this [00:54:00] big one too? From, from James clear, it's pretty confronting. It's pretty confronting, but actually I totally agree with it.

And I totally agree with your setting an intention the night before we've spoken about it on the show in previous episodes and it's so perfect. That it's been brought up in this show about James clear, because my a very simple example, I'll paint a simple picture. If I haven't set that intention the night before, whether the intention let's say exercise, whether it's yoga or some kind of hate workout or a run I'll get up.

And my head is, is kind of foggy. I just stand around for a bit. I'll look around, I'll think. Well, do I want to put on my trainers? What's the weather, like, let me check the rain forecast and what ends up happening is that procrastination [00:55:00] or dig into the time that I could have turned, uh, Myself around, gone for a nice run.

Probably add the time of my life out in the Sydney, Dawn, eh, but instead I'll stand around, maybe wear my slippers, thinking how do I do

I haven't laid out my kit the night before, or I haven't decided before I go to bed. So that as soon as I wake up, I know what I'm doing. And I am 100% a believer in this intention setting style or this method, and both you as well as James Clara saying here. And for me, I also like this if, then, then what?

So if I wake up and it is raining. Okay, well what's the backup plan, no dramas. It's this ability to change and flow with the punches that I really liked from that glare. That's that's tip. I like how he, how he [00:56:00] challenged us to say, do the kill the company exercise. Like what would, if you need to get your intentions right.

Ask you to what will happen if I don't do right. If I don't commit to these habits, um, if I don't set the intention as well, What happens sometimes, you know, that that, uh, negative, uh, case motivation can work hard. It's, you know, look at Michael Jordan, he often got his intention, his motivation was derived from the competition with others.

He needed an external factor. So sometimes that can be rather than the upside. You can look at the downside, the fear of losing, if you will, uh, can sometimes motivate us. But what's really fascinating is. In this next clip, James clear builds on this idea and he puts forward a really interesting story that relates to how goals and systems relate to each other and how we can use them.

[00:57:00] So once again, let's have a listen to the author of atomic habits. Mr. James clear. Most people are familiar with the story of the good Samaritan stopping along the side of the road to help, uh, help a fallen person, help someone in need. Well, Princeton, their theology school decided to run this experiment and they brought in a bunch of theology students.

They said, all right, we're all familiar with the story of the good Samaritan. We're going to break you up into groups and you're going to go teach in different rooms across campus. You're going to teach this. Story. And so they started talking about, you know, how they were going to deliver the presentation.

So on a couple of different cohorts, the one cohort they said, all right, just go ahead and, you know, go off and, and deliver the presentation. So they went off to their rooms. Um, the second one, though, they did something interesting. They sent the group off, but on their way to the, well, they send the group off and they said, by the way, we're running a little bit behind.

Right? You don't have very long to get there. It takes about 10 minutes. You only got five, so we kinda need to hurry. Um, you're probably already going to be late. So, if they're in a rush, they know they're going to go give this presentation on the way they planted an actor on the, uh, on the [00:58:00] campus. And this actor is laying on the grounds, hurts moaning in pain.

And so they scream twice and then they cry out. And every single group, when right past the person in need to go give a presentation about helping a person in need, one person even stepped over the guy who was in pain in order to get there. Now. The point of this. And what I'd like to start talking about now is the danger of being goal-focused and goal-oriented these people had a goal, right.

To deliver a presentation and they were so one-sided. So narrow-minded so focused on that goal that they miss the bigger picture and the perspective of what they should have been doing in the first place. And I think that this can be a danger of goals often. And so instead I would like to encourage us to focus on systems systems rather than goals.

Here's some examples. If you're a coach, your goal is to win a championship, but your system is what your team does at practice each day. If you're a writer, your goal might be to write a book, maybe even write a [00:59:00] best-selling book, but your system is how you write each week. The schedule that you follow. If you're an entrepreneur, your goal could be to build a million dollar business or $10 million business.

But the system is the sales and marketing process that you have. The systems are what actually make the difference. There would drive the results. And what I've seen having goals is great. Having a vision, having a dream is nice. It's important to know where you're going and where you're headed. It's important to have some clarity of focus.

To know that we're moving in this direction, but once you know that having to go on paper makes very little difference and committing to the system and showing up every day drives a lot of results. So the goal is the destination or what really, really matters is how you're going to get there. It's so good.

It's a good contender for the second, most valuable clip of the show. I reckon

it's such a good, um, Build this idea of missing the bigger picture we're so comm, uh, confronted we're so [01:00:00] focused on losing weight, getting a six pack, being the fastest person, we know, delivering an amazing, uh, uh, career defining pitch, whatever it might be. Actually, the bigger picture is okay. Well, what.

What, uh, 10 weeks, what methods, what processes do I go through to get there? And for, for me, and I think this is, and y'all agree, Mike, exactly what James is telling us. Once you've built those processes, those systems, that's what will make the biggest value over time. Those will create the change that you're probably chasing by setting a goal.

I think the, um, the difference.

Hmm. I think the difference, uh, that he's pointing out is we, we can all have big ideas, um, big goals, lofty goals, um, but the, um, [01:01:00] The real thing here is he saying the differences made in the systems much like we learned from Michael Jordan, you can want. To be the best, but he was first training last to leave.

And, uh, it's like the Einstein, uh, thing that, um, you know, 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration is the formula for success. I think these are all related. Ideas that if you have goals, turn your attention. And I'm thinking at an atomic level, James clear wants us to create daily rituals, habits, or systems that help us get to those, those goals.

And I think, um, if we've got all of this ambition and desire to do great things, frame that goal, but then devote yourself. [01:02:00] Plow yourself into the systems, the rituals and their habits. I think this is perhaps the biggest, uh, idea alongside of this. It's not motivation that we're missing, but it's this lack of clarity that we heard him talking about in the previous clip.

Put these two together. If you get this clarity on the system, you'll achieve the goals and you'll have no problem with motivation. What do you think. That's exactly it. Motivation is a dangerous word, especially when you're waking up and you don't feel you relying on motivation. That's not the way to achieve those, those goals as ultimate destinations.

You're trying to get to instead focus on that bigger picture. That's such a great. Takeaway. And it really reinforces that to do is to approach this setting, the intention approach. Those are your motivations, [01:03:00] and that's what I'll be taking away from this episode and installing those little systems in order to get that big, big goal of why am I doing it?

I think that's right. Well, talking about motivation in this. Final clip from James clear. I think he's giving us not only a system, but he's giving us the motivation to, so let's for one last time here from the author, James clear, and let's find what he has to say about how long does it take to build a new habit?

What's bust the myth of how many days it takes to set a habit because there's 14 days, 28 days, 60 days a year. If you do something every single day, and maybe it changes for each person, but what's the science or the, uh, the statistics. Say about how long it takes to form a positive or negative habit? I guess.

So 21 [01:04:00] days is the thing you hear all the time, 30 days, a hundred days, whatever. Right now, 66 days is making the rounds is the latest solid and another book. What was that book? Well, there was one study done that found that 66 days was the average, uh, for how long it takes. And as a rule of thumb, I don't think it's terrible.

Like you should remind yourself. Yeah, this is going to be months of work. It's not just getting something quick, but even within that, Study the range was quite wide. So if you did something simple, like drink a glass of water at lunch each day, it would take like three weeks. If you do something more difficult, like go for a run after work every day, that would be like seven or eight.

But I think actually that question to begin with is sort of a, there's like a broken mentality, but right. It is because if you ask that question, the implicit assumption is. When do I have to stop working? Or when, when is this done? Um, and then is it automatic address certain period of time? Well, the honest answer to, okay.

How long it takes to build a new habit is forever. Because if you stop, then it's no longer a habit. It's a constant and choice and decision. Right. I think people [01:05:00] and look at habits as like a finish line to be crossed, but it's actually a lifestyle to be lived. And if you look at it as a lifestyle change, then you're saying, okay, okay.

What's something small. Stainable I can stick to right. With something that can actually last over time. Um, the lifetime commitment, then it's so true. When you think right. A habit I'm going to quit smoking that moment of quitting that could come after a week. It could come after a day, perhaps it's that's not going to be the end of it.

Is it? It's a lifetime habit too. Promise to yourself and commit to something where you're either going to repeat it or not repeat it. And I think James clear, he's, he's living into his own name here. He's being crystal clear about habits. They aren't something that you can just adopt and then throw you have to live to it day in, day out.

And I think that's, that's empowering to me. What do you think Mike? [01:06:00] Yeah, I like this, this very Frank answer. And he's like, well, it sort of takes forever. And to be very Frank, I like this because to me it speaks to this. A broader theme of making change really at an atomic level inside of yourself. And, uh, like perfection, you never really finished the job.

You just keep working on it. And that's why it's so important to be working on things that matter to you that are part of your dreams and your vision for yourself. You're doing you're following your effort. You're going through the ups and downs because you truly want. To achieve the things you set out to do.

You're not a passenger in life, you're in the driving seat. I think this really connects to just realizing the very best version of yourself and [01:07:00] having this belief in the infinite potential that lies within us and that we can just keep working and keep improving all the time. Who, what a big set of clips Mark.

I mean, Have we covered some ground or what? Yeah, we really have. It's been, it's been illuminating and James Claire's work is, is really, really relatable. It's quite practical, but at the same time he breaks things down and really, really, um, you know, quite, quite simple to understand why. So I've, I've really enjoyed getting into him.

He's, he's reinforced a lot of the topics that we've spoken about before, around. Uh, intentions, encouragement, personal ownership, I think comes in a lot through all of this. Um, what's, what's the biggest, what's the biggest lesson that you've taken from this episode? Do you think Mike? Yeah, I mean, to me, James clear has just been like one huge [01:08:00] wake up call, you know, if it was a bucket of cold or we got in the Lasha, we got another server on this one.

Um, I could probably do. More work on setting my intentions continuously reviewing the systems and working on them, working in the system, working on the system. Um, you have these, the last three clips really spoke to me. Um, And, and it's just exciting too, for the proposition that we can always grow. I mean, he even talked about the idea.

Look, listen, if you exercise and read books, you're basically going to be superwoman or Superman. Like it doesn't matter because if you read, you can fix anything in your exercise, you'll be in the right state to get the job done. So as spectrum of gifts, Mark, how good was that? So, so good. I'm going to be going to bed tonight, setting myself a great intention for tomorrow morning.

Who knows what it'll be? Maybe it'll be writing for a change. [01:09:00] No, you gotta, you gotta read a news article Mark. Come on, stays go. I'm going to keep you on track, man. Yeah. Thank you. That's good. That's good to keep me accountable.

Well, it's been great, Mark. Thank you for, for helping me decode the world of atomic habits. The book by James clear, it's been really wonderful to share, uh, these sometimes uncomfortable. Sometimes practical, sometimes inspiring. Uh, it was just a full bevy from James clear. So thank you to you, Mark. And thank you to you.

All of our listeners. Thank you for joining us on this journey of behavior and mindset change. I hope you're all going to go out there. Set the intention and create the systems, not just. For today, not just for tomorrow, but for well beyond. And whether you're listening in Mexico, Austria, Slovakia, or some other cozy part of the world, I hope [01:10:00] you're enjoying this journey into learning from innovators.

And as Mike and I go on this journey, we're so excited to share it with you to get your feedback. So always dropping at moonshots dot. I, uh, tell us what you're thinking, who you'd like us to cover and make sure you've got. Um, if they use a handle. So whether it's dragons cool. Y'all we thank you for spending this time with us here on the moonshots podcast.