ed catmull

episode 8

Broadcast date: September 2017

The Moonshots finds inspiration in the world of kids animation. Join us for a visit with Ed Catmull President, Walt Disney and Pixar Animation Studios and Disneytoon Studios. 

For this show, we're joined by a guest co-host - Simon Banks. Simon is a Creativity & Innovation Expert, author, and Master Graphic Facilitator.

OUR FABULOUS GUEST CO-HOST

For this show, we're joined by a guest co-host - Simon Banks. Simon is a Creativity & Innovation Expert, author, and Master Graphic Facilitator. Here's his brand new book: A Thousand Little Lightbulbs: How to Kickstart a Culture of Innovation in Your Organisation.

Ed Catmull Books + Interviews 

Book

Creativity, Inc.:
Overcoming the Unseen Forces That Stand in the Way of True Inspiration

Interviews 

Creativity, Inc.: Overcoming the Unseen Forces That Stand in the Way of True Inspiration

MilkenInstitute
Published on Aug 6, 2014

This is what makes Pixar so successful according to Ed Catmull | Fortune

Fortune Magazine
Published on Jul 17, 2015

Ed Catmull: Creativity, Inc. Interview

Anne Mavity
Published on Apr 30, 2014

Ed Catmull - Live @ WORLDWEBFORUM 2017

WORLDWEBFORUM
Published on Mar 9, 2017
 

TRANSCRIPT

Welcome to the moonshots podcast. It's September six, 2017. And we are at the fabulous episode eight. Or are we at episode seven? Chad, I'm losing count. Oh, it's definitely episode eight. It's definitely episode eight. Well, there you go. We are really excited about this show because again, we're pivoting from the world of the NFL to an equally interesting place.

Chad, who were we going to deconstruct? Who is the great creative entrepreneur that we're going to decode and learn from today? One of my favorite creative minds in the entertainment industry, behind such films as inside out Ratatouille toy story. And up it is in fact ed Catmull, uh, one of the co founders of Pixar.

And, uh, we have someone special here on the podcast with us today, too. Right. Mike? Very exciting. We have our second guest joining us on the moonshots podcast. Joining us from not far up the road from me is mr. Simon banks, who is a creative and innovation guru. He is. Such a wonderful and creative mind. He can do everything from illustrate to run really amazing workshops, where he sort of unleashes the creativity duty of, of PayPal.

And he, he's actually just about to launch a brand new book, which is a fantastic rate. It's called a thousand little light bulbs. How to kickstart a culture of innovation in your organization. Hello, Simon banks. Hello, Mike. Hello. Thanks for having me along. Hello, Chad. So bad if you're Jonah Simon. And I think it's, um, it's really the, the setting, the scene for the story of creativity, by digging into a cat Merrill who not only was a co cofounder of picks up, but he was also now taken over the reins of Disney who acquired Pixar a few years ago.

And he oversees one of the most, not only I think. Most successful film studios in history, if you compare their average succession, I mean, literally every film with maybe one exception out of the 18 or 19 or so that they've released, most of them are multimillion dollar critically acclaimed successes.

And if you think about, we all love the toy store finding Nemos and Beau's life. But if you think. If you go outside of this film and you think where else in the world do you see a company that every single product they release is a smash hit? I, Chad, I cannot actually think of any other thing, even Apple and even Amazon have they misses, I don't think anyone who's got a batting rate as good as Pixar.

I don't know any company that has had every single one of their launches gross over a hundred million dollars with, I think, five of them, like close to half a billion. Right. And often, often they are just replacing their own achievements with new achievements. So, you know, bugs life beats the Incredibles to be the highest grossing animation film, but their journey of success is so great.

Not only are they just the Kings of animated film, but you can safely say that they're just getting to the point where they're just the Kings. Of film. So to give you a sense of their success, if you adjust it for price inflation, you're looking at five of their films have grossed at just ticket price alone, over 400 million us dollars.

And. From that there is a huge, huge source of creativity. And what is so special about today's show is we're actually going to dig into the book that ed Catmull wrote. It's called creativity, inc. Overcoming the unseen forces that stand in the way of true inspiration. So we not only have bikes, the most successful movie studio in the world and its founder revealing his secret, but we might have one of the greatest.

Stories in innovation in history because remember, yes, Apple had the iPhone, the iPod I pad, but Pixar have had over 15 smash hits. Almost every single movie is its own iPhone launch. That's how successful they are. And Simon, I know you live in the world of creativity and you, you started as an illustrator.

So it must be wonderfully exciting to dig into this story of Pixar ed capital and all the learnings that he shares in creativity inc. Yeah, absolutely. Just to see that transition that he had from, I guess, wanting to be in artists and then went into the world of computer science and physics, and then how those two gels as well, so that, I guess that whole brain thinking that whole brain approach and different parts of his lifestyle, that all form to make a Pixar and his storytelling, what it is today.

So yeah, just saying that the mix that he has has just been fascinating. And Chad, I want to hit it straight back at you. You're a storyteller in the medium of film. What does it feel like when you read creativity, inc? Is it like the playbook to your company's success and the next film? I mean, it must be very special to read.

Yeah. I'm not going to lie. I've always wanted to work for George Lucas since I was a very small kid, the closest I've gotten is a befriending Dennis Muren. A long time collaborator and, you know, multi Oscar winner for special effects at industrial light and magic. That was a very close collaborator with George on, on all the star Wars films in Indiana Jones and, and, and many more.

But, um, Ed's, I think unique amongst the people we've profiled thus far because he wrote creativity inc very much from a management perspective. And, you know, wanting to impart that kind of wisdom, uh, on, on the readers. And then he also peppers in the story of what Simon was saying, you know, he was a physicist and then he got into computer science and then he got poached by George Lucas.

So there's also just the story of Pixar and. You know, the founding was Steve jobs and how ed had a different relationship with Steve jobs that makes it a much more interesting, just simply a management or how to manage creativity kind of book. And I think the most interesting example is when Disney bought Pixar and the two companies had to integrate, and ed had a really interesting approach to that.

And so I actually just want to play our first clip. Where Ed's explaining kind of what happened. Uh, when Pixar and Disney had to merge nine years ago, uh, Disney bought Pixar and they put Disney animation under us and Disney animation, uh, in the nineties had four hugest successful films. So there was a little mermaid.

Do we need to be Aladdin and lion King, then it was downhill for 17 years. So when we came in, they were demoralized, they were dispirited and they were failing as a company. So this is this great opportunity. Can we take these ideas and apply them to a group that was fundamentally broken and see if the ideas work?

So we decided to keep them entirely separate and not allowed to do any. Production work for each other at all. So we explained the principles in about four hours. They all nodded their heads in agreement. This all makes perfect sense. It took four years for them to deeply get it. And now of course, they've.

And I'm every, every film has been a success since now, while the ideas sounded good, it took four years for them to get to actually understand it. There is a vast difference between thinking you understand something and actually understanding it is always easy to state your values. The hard part is asking yourself why you don't live up to them.

The second observation was that when we arrived, the studio was considered to be a failure and not producing creative films. However, once this studio turned around and they were successful and creative, that's where they are now. The important point is they are largely the same people as who were there when they were failing.

And I believe this is the most important point I've got to make the talent was there. We just had to allow it to flower. And if you understand this, you will do better. It is our choices to block or enable that potential, remove the blocks to candor, make it okay to make mistakes. And now look out at the world.

What is our reaction to threats? So, what do you think he's, uh, got lots of wisdom. So the amazing thing about what he did was he took fundamentally a team that had failed for years and years and he didn't rip it apart. He was patient and he went into this mentor mode and he really respected the individuals.

I mean, I'm just trying to think of how many times we hear about the complete ripping apart of a team when it's failing, firing all the execs, bringing in all the new ones, new leaders, new branding, all of that. He focused on doing a number of things to unlock the potential in those people. And largely those people are still there today and are having great success.

I think this establishes the, the credibility, not only yeah, of ed and Pixar and he's booking his thinking, but I think it really speaks to. This philosophy of everyone's got the potential, it's the manager's job to get all of the, the blockers, all of the barriers out of the way so that they, they can thrive.

And I thought that was a really powerful way to kind of set up. The impact that, that he's, uh, he's had in the world. When you, when you heard this Simon and you hear about how he approached the Disney thing, what, what struck you about his approach in how he allowed people to, to really flower. Look, I guess what struck me, I guess, similar to what you said as well, is that those same people went from having a, you know, uh, I guess 17 years of failure as our 17 years of, uh, not producing the quality they want through to, you know, producing them.

They're brilliant movie. So I guess allowing yourself the freedom and the space to rediscover that. Creative ability and that creative, uh, pulse that imagination that we all have. And I guess providing the right sort of environment where people felt that they could let their ideas flourish once again, because me and my thoughts are that, you know, everyone is creative, but you know, most of us, you know, it's, it's, we've forgotten it or it's fallen by the wayside or, you know, other things have taken over, but I guess he just came in and, you know, let that flourish.

And, um, you know, those people found their, their heartbeat again. And do you see this regularly when you're working with teams, do you often feel that they're they're highly constrained and that they, they in fact do find it hard to kind of unleash their creativity? Oh, look, I would say almost every, a team, especially in lodge.

The large corporates, I work with have a huge amount of constraint and, you know, there's a, there's a great, you know, John Cleese I'm on the path and fame says that, uh, you know, creativity needs to be liberated. It doesn't need to be taught. So it's just letting people understand that, you know, okay. To, uh, you know, to, to make mistakes and play and experiment.

And you know that you are all sitting on a, a great. Positive credit potential, giving people the confidence and belief in themselves to, you know, to do that again. So yeah, absolutely. I see it all the time. What tool or technique do you use when you come to two teams that are all kind of locked in and not able to unleash their creativity?

What are some of the things that you practical, things that you do with them to help them get ideas? Flowing, get creativity, moving. I just try and I guess upfront try and make it fun again because you know, creativity and innovation are the we've been doing it since that day dot. Um, so it's nothing new.

Um, and it's actually really good. It's really fun to create and make things and explore. And so the first thing is credit environment where people are having a good time, uh, and they feel safe. So I think that's the number one thing and make it. Enjoyable. So place where they want to be. And I guess this isn't so much a tool, but I always make everyone acknowledge.

They're a creative Olga, which is this bigger. I call the big monster we have inside of us. It tells us how uncreative we are or how terrible our ideas might sound and often goes right back to maybe a pretty average comment you might've had from a teacher at school about your, uh, Art. And so you therefore relater your ability to draw with your ability to be creative, but, you know, as ed Catmull explores, those things are the same art and create art or drawing creativity out in the same.

So I guess they're the two things I always shall we do to kickoff. So credit, fun environment, which is enjoyable, then get people to deal with their OGA. And then you can start to go into a, I guess, ways to shift your thinking. And how do people respond when you unlock that? What happens? Tell us about, take us to that moment when someone's finally getting it, creativity flowing.

What does that look like? And feel like, look, it feels like you can, you can shift, you can feel the energy in the room, so, or the vibe or whatever my be, you feel that sort of shift. Um, so people start to smile and realize, actually this is going to be okay. Uh, I will be looked after and you know, my ideas won't be, I'm torn to shreds and you, what you hear is lots of great conversation.

And I guess you see lots of movement as well. Cause I think, you know, the, the way we move and manage our energy has a big impact on the quality of ideas. So you, you hear a lot of, you hear a lot of noise and it feels good and you see a lot of movement as well. Awesome. So Chad, we're going to go into this next clip now, which is all about removing blocks.

And I guess you must see a lot of people that when they're trying to be creative, just facing all sorts of, as Simon would say the yoga. What do you see in your work when you're making film and watching entrepreneurs innovate? What do you often see when people are. Facing barriers. Where are those moments that seem to cause the greatest resistance?

Well, I think it's the capital, our resistance that lives in the back of all of our brains. Uh, the ogre has Simon called it. Um, honestly I do feel that that moving past that and just being in an environment where you are comfortable and, and taking that risk and failing and being a bit vulnerable, that's when I feel like I'm, I'm doing the best work, but.

It's really hard to get into that space sometimes, which is why I was so drawn to learn from, from ed, but a here I'm going to play this, this clip that you'd chosen out of. I don't know, like the two dozen that we had this time around too many, too many. Um, but uh, I want to be sure that we get to all of them.

So, uh, so here's ed, uh, talking about removing these barriers to our creativity just within the last few weeks frozen. Um, past toy story three, to become the highest grossing animated film, uh, in history for worldwide gross. Now actually for all films, live action and animated. It's the sixth highest grossing film in history.

So here's the key takeaway. It's largely the same people who were there when they were failing. And my view you is, and I believe this very strongly is that most people are creative. Most people want to do well on the issue is not, how do you make them be more creative? It's how do we remove the barriers and the blocks that the barriers and the blocks are systemic.

They're hidden. They're hard to get at, but if we get rid of those blocks, we enable those people to become their better selves. So this clip is really the perfect setup to the next two, two ideas that we have for the listeners. And I think the, the, the setup that we've got here is that you have to remember that Pixar is dealing with creative ideas.

They do not stop from an engineering point of view or. Um, creating something that has a patent, they deal with story and story is very ambiguous. It's hard to capture and a good story in execution can sound bad as an idea. And so this is the great challenge that they face, and this is why this theme of safety is coming up and removing those blocks.

So, guys, what I want to do is I want to jump straight into this next clip because now here are. Two things that Pixar does that we can all learn from. Now, the first one we're going to hear about is this. And I want to stay on this one. Yeah, yeah. I can. I'll let you, I'll let you do it. Come on. No, I just need, I want to steal the technique.

I've thought it was so great. Absolutely. There's this idea. And it started with the founding team at Pixar of the brain trust. So I'm not gonna get all of them, but it was Steve and at Steve jobs and ed Catmull and John Laster. And I'm leaving at least two others out, but they essentially created a space where they could be open and honest and vulnerable and really hash out the ideas on what it takes to create a great story.

But here I'll just let ed speak about creating and working with the, the, these brain trusts inside of Pixar and eventually Disney animation as well. Now, when you talk about the brain trust, it's not a group of people that exist all the time. It's what we call the group that come together to solve a problem.

Usually for meetings after we viewed what a film is, or a two day offsite and it operates under four principles, uh, one of them is that, um, the, um, nobody can override the director. All right. So, uh, basically, yeah, we remove the power structure from the room. So John's notes are minus, we can't override the director.

Okay. Now it's easier said than done because people will sometimes defer to what they perceive the power structure to be, but it's a conscious effort to, to not have that. The second is this peer-to-peer. So that is filmmaker talking to filmmaker. It's not a boss talking to filmmaker boss talking to an employee.

Um, the third one, the director. Well it's because the director is it's, it's their project. It's a, his or her project or they're the ones responsible. The reason we have to remove the power structure. Is if they know the group can override them, then they will enter the room in a defensive posture and that will make us so they don't listen by allowing them to say, though, the choice is really yours.

They then can come in because they're highly exposed and then they can listen and they will treat the comments as comments to help them. Um, the, uh, third principle. Is that, um, they all share each other's success. They have a vested interest in each other's success. And the last one is just that they give and take honest note.

Okay. So for me, what is so powerful about this is that it's not just for Hollywood style animation. This concept of a brains trust can be applied to a board and its CEO. It can be done within a management team. It can be done within a startup in the founders. It can be done up in any sort of organization.

I think that the, the important thing we have to understand that he did here. It became about listening. It became about the lack of hierarchy. There's no threat. And he systematically, he designed the organization so that all the things that impede people from hearing from listening. And making the work better, all those barriers, he got rid of them by saying, there's no judgment.

We're all here for you and we can't override you. So you've, you've let the guard down. And this is where all of the Pixar amazing twists and refinements come from because the director comes ready. To listen, they're not just trying to please a manager. So this concept of a brains trust can be applied in a multitude of ways to any sort of team.

And I think that the notion of creating that alignment, so people are not under threat and can start to listen and to be creative together. I think. Ray is a very exciting idea. And I, and I think Simon use a ton of this when you get groups together and you've created those right conditions, something you talked about earlier.

Great things happen. So tell us a little bit about what you see when this happens and what kind of thoughts come to your mind when thinking about trying to design for this success? Yeah, look, I think it's, um, what they've done really well is they they've understood that the human spirit is quite fragile and such fear of, uh, your idea being shot down or torn apart that makes, makes you in that defensive mode.

And I also like what they focused on the, I guess, on the problem, not the person that problem being had with, we know, create a greater story. So yeah, I guess part of it is just having that, um, you know, that, that. Openness to discuss ideas and I guess, you know, build on each other's ideas. So, you know, that's some of the, a whole is much greater than the, you know, the power spot self.

So when you get that, you know, that peer to peer, uh, it's sort of like when you're sitting with a good group of friends and you're, you're discussing something, you know, that, um, yeah. Yeah, everyone's wanting to all move in the right direction, create that great film or create that great story that you get, that, you know, that wonderful collaboration that's when I guess ideas become not just one, but they become many and they, they start to roll into each other and build and grow.

Yeah. I, I think, um, my experience with it is whenever I share my work with others, it always gets better. And when I've been under enormous pressure to come up with work and ideas and products and so forth often I'm most offtrack when I've just been bunkered down. And when in, on the inverse of that, when I'm sharing and people are giving great feedback, I look at the final product and I can honestly say, well, geez, if I hadn't have had those suggestions and ideas that would never have met, ever have got to, to where it's got, I mean, I'm interested Chatwin when you're.

Trying to create a great story produce and direct a film. Do you guys have tools like brain trust or collective ideas of people coming together to work on an idea and tell us about how this kind of reflects in your own practice? Well, I try and fight as much as I can against the idea of the grand reveal, because that never works.

Like you said, Mike toiling away in the bunker and then. Going TETA. It, uh, always falls flat. And so for me, it's just, you know, ship things early and be adamant about asking for feedback. Um, and I do this actually in many more areas of my life than just work. Is like you, sometimes you kind of have to pester people for feedback.

And this is why I love the idea of this brain trust, which is a group of people that is solely designed to be open and vulnerable and give honest notes. Um, because it's, it's hard for us to move past kind of the surface level of things sometimes. But I also want to mention, you know, Ed is very adamant about saying that it doesn't always work and sometimes it's not the right context and sometimes it's not the right people.

So I think what I'm going to do is kind of go out into my network and see who I maybe want to recruit for. You know, my brain trust on, on my work and, uh, and like really try and cultivate this practice. Um, I think this is my single favorite idea that I took away both from these, uh, talks that we listened to and the book creativity inc.

Yeah, I, I tell you what is interesting. Um, did you guys, were you guys a little surprised that even when they've got these huge directors, when they get in the room with the big chiefs of Pixar, they still, I feel fragile and vulnerable and they defer to the power structure in the room. Cause it's sort of the antithesis of what you expect.

The Hollywood director to be. Did that surprise you guys at all actually explains their genius? Like, I think that's the only way that they could come up with movies that have been so successful. I mean, I think, I don't think they could have done it any other way. And I think that's why. So many people kind of clamor to make a film, like with Pixar, with Disney animation, because they know that they're going to get an idea that is refined hundreds, if not thousands of times, which just like I've been on the inside of movies that have never seen the light of day because of a megalomaniacal director that is just like running off the rails.

Um, because there is no checks and balances. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm very fascinated at this kind of inside creative process and how they, they work. And I think you actually have a, this next clip, Mike, that they kind of tease that up. Oh yeah. So, so if you imagine that the brain's trust creates this environment and the right dynamics for feedback, this next clip is going to be, um, ed talking about, um, The key practice that they need to do inside of the, the immersion of, um, a creative idea of film or story.

And he sets up the grayness of it. And this is the, this is the, at the heart of the complexity and the struggle of creativity. So let's listen to ed talking about dumb ideas. Alright. So zero dumb ideas. It is a bad concept. In fact, sometimes dumb ideas actually stimulate. Good idea. Okay. How about 40 dumb ideas or 40 dumb ideas?

Okay. Probably not. It means somebody is throwing up a bunch of stuff and taking up air time and they don't actually get it. So if zero is bad, okay. And 40 dumb ideas is bad. Where should we be? I don't know, somewhere in the middle. And that's the challenge is to be able to operate in this space where we cannot clearly define where we should be, and we have to make it safe to operate in this messy, uh, environment.

Um, the fear of looking bad or of making mistakes. Or of not delivering lead people conclude that environment is not safe. So, so this. Resonated with me a great deal. It took me back back to my days on Madison Avenue, working with these really large corporate clients, doing big consumer marketing campaigns, and we'd get briefed on these huge, like, we want to launch this in 35 markets and you've got hardly any time and, and the pressure.

Of meeting these big deadlines and these economic realities. If you're going to launch, you've got to launch big, you've got to sell a ton of them. And then you've got the creative process trying to live side by side. And just the, the challenge it was for clients to empathize with the creative process, because they're under so much pressure for.

Big commercial launch. I just saw myself in this process stuck in this world as some sort of, you know, balancing between these two worlds. Um, it's such a, it's such a murky and you just don't, there is no right or wrong. There's sort of an organic path that you have to follow. And, and, and this, this dispose to the great, great challenge of trying to make commercial success live with, with creativity.

So this is what you do every day. So in, and as a, as a illustrator, a facilitator as an you're forever exploring ideas and working with others, you know, to make it safe for them to explore the right number of ideas. How do you do it? Like what practices do you have navigate through when, if we got something and when, when are we still not there?

Yeah, it's a really good question. You know, before I was an illustrator, I wasn't, you know, an abstract artist. And so I, you know, painter and I did quite well, you know, in this field and, you know, exhibited, you know, in Sydney and the UK. So this it's this interplay of, uh, when do you know something's done and when it's finished and the process, isn't always linear that I guess I really resonated.

With me with that sort of that messy space. Yeah. Ed spoke about. And so I bring, try to bring that to the, you know, the people I work with that, I guess, in the corporate space, as you, um, spoke of when you were had these deadlines, there's often this mindset that look, we've got a day and we need to get. Uh, we need to solve it in a day, but often it doesn't work like that.

And also we might, uh, we might try some different things to, you know, explore our thinking. And I guess putting across that point that this might not be the answer you're looking for, but it starts to become part of that answer. And, you know, so just giving people the opportunity to explore a number of different ways, but it will be okay with the fact that if you don't get the answers straight away, because obviously you want to solve this in an, in an hour because it makes us productive and we get things done quickly.

That's our stall. You have to be a K with, with that, with that ambiguity and you get comfortable with being uncomfortable as well, and not having that answer straight away, but also try a bunch of different things. If something doesn't work, you know, try something else because yeah. As ed talks about none of this is linear.

And every time you, every time you explore new ideas, that the process you follow or a w the way your team model, right? It's, it's always different. So you prepared that you can't squeeze people into a process and make them all perform like well trained seals everyone's different. And that, you know, that style and approach would be different every time as well.

I love the linear thing. How do you Chad know when, when you're trying to take creativity and to put it into a linear format, how do you know when you've got the idea? Crummy? Just looking at people's reactions. When I see nodding heads and people leaning in, I think for me, that's when I know that I'm on to something.

Cause I'm in, in the attention capturing business and the same way that the Pixar is. And if you're not okay with getting that emotional response, I'm seeing the emotional response as leaning in, or yeah, also the eyes you can tell when someone's listening, um, are really invested that's and it's an easy shift.

From the third or the fourth to the 13th idea on the 14th, you see the shift and then you know, that, that it's actually connected with someone and then you can run with it. I think. It's it's hard. It's hard to push through to get to that point though, because you think all like in the same way, like people don't understand or internalize like statistics and it's, it's like a numbers game.

And I think that's what adds really getting to add here is it's a numbers game within reason. So he, you know, he's like, it's not 40 movie ideas. And it's not zero it's somewhere in between and how, and how do we, you know, and the best way through it in the book, he talks about how he takes amazing director like Brad bird, who directed the Incredibles.

One of my favorite movies let alone like Pixar movies, this famous director, Brad bird comes in, who's directed a number of great films. He still has to come to Pixar and pitch three films. Pixar doesn't develop ideas and the same way that other studios do. They don't go out and shop for ideas and buy up the latest, hottest scripts from writers.

They pick a director first and then have them pitch three films. And again, this is, and Pixars philosophy of, you know, you can't just be tied to one thing and the director will develop all three ideas and then pitch it to. Uh, the Pixar creative team, all three ideas. And eventually they land on one, but it took the creation and the investment of time and energy into those three ideas to actually come out with one that it was worth the investment of, you know, hundreds of peoples of time and effort for sometimes like five or even seven years.

I think frozen. Took I think seven years from initial pitch concept to hit the screen, which is an enormous amount of time, uh, in the entertainment industry. And they're always very willing to change right at the end. And that was another theme. That came up a lot. When we were investigating ed, he talks about, you know, making those big Coles is really the essence of creativity and making an idea go from good to great.

Did you have some other thoughts on, on, on ideas and the journey it takes to get them home? Yeah, I liked what Chad was saying before. Like when you, when do you, uh, know that the idea is sticky, this almost, you start to see people get out of their chair a little bit. If you're, if you are sitting, you, you see the energy, then you see that people start to, to build on that idea as well.

So I guess that's when you're in that. I guess a room environment. That's when you can start to say, hang on, we're onto something here and people close your eyes, start to light up as well. And again, there's no right or wrong white to measure that, but you just, you know, you have to work with what you can see and feel.

But what I liked with, um, I liked when a him with ed and picks out, then they're not right. Blow things up as well. They, yeah, if I feel it needs a massive shift. They'll they'll take that. So no matter how far along they are in the process, if it, if it doesn't feel right, they're not scared to blow it up and start.

And again, because part of what they've done already will also feed into the success of, you know, once they have blown up as well. So I guess it's that massive action that, you know, I guess really struck me rather than being so far along, are we we're too far into this to do it, to change it now that they're happy to.

So it's funny, you mentioned that I had a situation this week where I was on a call yesterday and were about to start a large new project for a very large organization. And there was myself and two others on a call. And we're, it's all been about all the work to get the project started and where we're literally a week or two from, from kickoff.

And one of my colleagues says, look, I'm really concerned about weather. The constraints on this project mean that we will never build a great product. And it took me by real surprise because everything has been about getting the project started and everyone's familiar with what it takes. People align getting paperwork and signatures, uh, you know, sourcing great talent to work on it.

And we're literally a week away. And this question came up and I found myself. Um, because I was working on the ed Catmull show, uh, for us, I found myself thinking, well, this takes by real surprise. I'm so excited about the project. I didn't see this issue at all, but then I found myself becoming open because I realize, and what I've tried to learn from ed is that.

This is when your values really show if, if my colleague is right and we're working, walking into a situation where we can't make a group product, ever, the constraints are such that it's just impossible. And why would we try and make the product? W why would you put all that time and effort into something that's never going to succeed in the way we want it?

And I found myself not being like, ah, let's just do it. It's going to be great. I'll do some magic or whatever, but now I was like, okay, Let's talk about this. So we've now going through an evaluation process, which will no doubt, um, goes all sorts of strife because everyone everyone's like getting ready to, to, to climb the mountain and we're like, hang on.

Do we really want to climb this? She's the power of asking. Is the idea, right? Is the project is the product. Right? And, um, one of the other things I wanted to share with you both is that the funny thing that Chad was saying, you know, looking at how people respond and Simon was like people getting out of the chair, this totally corresponds with making great product as well, because when you're making a great product in particularly when you're prototyping, you have low fidelity materials, you might have paper pens, cardboard, you may even have some sort of rough.

Digital mockups. But the thing is, people are human beings first and they respond emotionally, whether it be good or bad, and you can actually see that in their body language, all those little gestures. And it's a big nod to the idea of don't ask your kid. I asked them about what they want, discover what they really need, what it's them, and look to the seat, nos that tell you that they read really appreciate something.

And I've seen that a lot in. Products, prototyping, sprints. And you know, when you've got something, Chad, you you've been in a number of days with me. Like, you know, when you've hit it and an equally, you know, when you're building a product and it's just not working. Oh yeah. I think the biggest sign is like, especially with the digital prototyping that's on a phone or a screen or something.

Someone will bring it closer to them or up to their face if they're really engaged with it. And if they're not, they just want to hand it back over to you. And they just, you know, they're kind of like done with it. So they almost like possess it in a way. And like, they don't want to give it back. Right.

That's showing you that they really need what you've provided. My other big tell is when an executive goes into pitch mode. And rather than listening and working with the customer on a, on a prototype, they're like, Hey, this is going to be great. Here are the features and benefits. You really want this don't you.

And, you know, and, and, and the interesting thing is that tends to be the most senior people who are used to pitching all the time and pitching or ideas in PowerPoint when they get in front of the customer, they've forgotten how to listen. And you. Simon, you must see a lot of this kind of behavior is trying to force an idea onto a customer.

Yeah. Especially that. Yeah. You know, people saying, uh, along the lines of, you know, I've got the product, I've got the product, you must want it. Yeah. Traditional way about launching a product. Yeah, which has changed a lot over the last sort of 10 years or that, you know, with what become more human centered design.

But, you know, I've got this idea. You have to lock it because it's, it's mine. And I guess that's a part of what it goes back to that brainstorm just that, you know, ed has his, you know, being open and listening and not pushing her, uh, pushing your idea on top of people, but actually being open to a. Uh, you know what everyone else can contribute in that, in that group.

Yeah. And, and I think this is the behavior shift. As we move away from industrial age practices in the office, getting into a knowledge, age, age is this empathy for your customer, for your user is really at the heart of the success. Now. I'm going to set up this next clip because this conversation about product creation leads perfectly into this, this next idea.

Obviously, everybody knows that Steve jobs not only ran Apple, but he actually ran big South for awhile. And. Ed Catmull spent so much time with Steve and knows Steve over the good and the bad and what was really powerful about the book, but also Ed's view of Steve jobs is it's very contrary to how most people perceive how Steve behaved in the office.

So why don't we listen now? And then we're going to discuss. The real transformation of Steve jobs and how he really achieved his greatness. So here's ed Catmull talking about working with Steve jobs, but in fact, what happened was over time, Steve went through three major failures, basically thrown out of Apple, um, picks are, uh, didn't make it, it was hanging by a thread, but basically it failed.

And next basically failed. Um, so in that, because he's really smart, he realized that he had, um, uh, it was not behaving appropriately. He wasn't acting right. And he was doing things to people which weren't good for them. So, because he's smart, he changed his behavior and we saw him become more empathetic.

He was very aware of his impact on people. Um, he thought about the cultural interactions and we saw this change, but here's the critical point when he made that change then after he made that change, everybody that was with him, stayed with him for the rest of his life. Very different to how everybody sees him.

And you, when you think of Steve jobs, you think of iPhone success, but what got him there? Was the transformation that ed just talked about. And I think that this is the move from the draconian dictator. I'm the ultimate tastemaker behavior shit, call that the old Steve and I moved towards the new Steve, which was being much more empathetic listening and really looking at the world from other people's points of view rather than just his own.

And I thrive. That. I mean, you, you know, when you think about this, Chad, this is not a story you hear about Steve jobs very much. I mean, you usually just hear about him berating people in the lift and find, yeah. I actually skipped to the end of the book when I heard this story and the interview and prepping for this show that the epilogue is that truly beautiful story.

And how ed had this unique relationship with Steve because. Ed came into the picture kind of in the middle of next and at the founding of it Pixar, which was a very pivotal moment for Steve kind of, I guess like roughly halfway, maybe a little before, halfway through his career, know through his working career at Apple.

And it was just very astute. I feel like of ed to see Steve in that way. In, in a way that other people maybe didn't and it, it, it, I mean, I encourage everyone to pick up creativity inc for everything that ed has to say, but this particular story about Steve jobs, I felt was really interesting having read the Walter Isaacson biography.

It was a very, very refreshing perspective. So I'm in, have you seen many people who are the old school? Very directive leader in a business, very dictatorial almost. Have you seen many of them make such a transformation? Uh, look, um, I'm not sure if I have, um, I guess often by the time, you know, someone. Yeah.

So they're in that leadership position they've been, they've made that an organization 30 years. They may, um, yeah, some of their habits stay around for a long time, but I think there's very much an awareness going on that, um, especially with, uh, I guess these things around listen empathy and seeing the Stephanie awareness and around, you know, how, uh, the old way of.

Doing things isn't going to help, uh, organizations are thrive, uh, as they move forward because, you know, times that it's just so different, you know, as you guys know, cause you, you deal with this, right. The pace of change is so great. And um, that ability to sort of, you know, listen and have empathy and, and, you know, be that brains, trust a group and, you know, be, be okay with ambiguity in that, uh, you know, Things not being the way they used to be in changing or something.

I see a shift there. Absolutely. But I cannot put it down to one particular leader I've seen transform. I wouldn't think so. Yeah. I mean, that's been largely my experience that by the time someone is in a senior position, The ability to transform from talking and pitching to listening and seeing is a bit too much.

And I think that, I think there's impart a generational thing there, but I think it also speaks to the, the, um, capability of Steve. The fact that he can make that transformation and that he can keep people Capitol close to him. And we'll hear a little bit more about that later in the show. Now, before we talk about the book, I think we should just recap a little bit on some of the themes.

I think the big one for me is that in the end of the day, it's not about getting in new people. It's about putting in new practices and putting in the right environment for those people to find their creative voice. I think that was the big story we heard in the, in the first half of the show. Um, and in the second half of the show, we're going to get into some of the other beliefs in about how ed has, has unlocked all this creativity, how he thought about himself relative to his peers.

The price we pay in success. So we've got a lot of good things coming down the pipe here in the show, but I wanted to ask both of you about any stories or anecdotes that were in the book that really, really spoke to you. I know Simon knew Jews vividly in prepping for the show, dug into the book, uh, from what you've read.

Were there any stories that really captured your imagination? And, and got you thinking about new ways to practice creativity. I guess one of the, one of the stories which jumped out was that after 20 years of trying to make an animation, that was his aim. And I think it then took him 30 years. If I've got that right to when a toy story came out, it achieved everything that he, um, you know, originally set out to do, but he felt quite.

Flat. And he realized that, you know, there was more to it than just making movies. And that was when he, I guess he shift came yeah. Around to, you know, his new purpose was around people. And so that shift from, um, I guess, you know, being a, an out now animator or a, a computer engineer or working in computer science with, with where you got into where I was, but that shift of being, um, people, because people are the, the are the heart and soul of, uh, of Pixar.

And he recognized that it wasn't, I guess it wasn't process and it wasn't, um, technology, but it was people. So I guess that reinforced something I already knew, but just his passion then was. Actually have his company thrived as he's led his people thrive? Well, it was interesting. He almost went on his own transformation from the engineer to the creative people person, like, like Steve jobs went on his own transformation as well.

Maybe that's what. What brought them together. Um, now the book is called creativity, inc. Overcoming the unseen forces that stand in the way of true inspiration. Chad, you've read a lot of books for the show. How, how did the writing stack up and where does this sit for you? In terms of the quality of the read and the writing?

Wait, where does it, where does it stand on the ladder? Oh, okay. I see where you're taking this up. It's interesting. All of the books have been very different. So the book that I read about FedEx was written by an insider. I'm very close to Fred Smith, the founder, and I'm, I'm pretty sure that he didn't have a ghost writer.

So it's kind of a very simple read, but you get a lot of insight information. The bill Belczyk book was written by a very good, well known, a very tenured. Right. Exactly. And it has a very, yeah, it has not like a formal field, but like you're reading kind of a pretty needy book. And in this one, because it's a collaboration with Amy Wallace, um, who I think has like written for GQ and many other periodicals.

It feels very much kind of like a collaboration where I'm sure that, that she and ed, you know, spent many hours in interviews. And so book to me feels like best of a hundred plus hours of interviews with ed kind of distilled into the best moments. You know, there's kind of chapters built around talking about the brain trust and then kind of at the beginning or ends of all these chapters that kind of forwards the story of.

Add and Pixar, you know, going from, you know, a physics student at the university of Utah and then getting on the internet with, you know, the original ARPANET back in the seventies and his 20 year journey from, Hey, I, I want to make an animated feature to actually having in building the technology and the hardware to do that.

And then of course, founding and building Pixar with the Steve jobs and John Lasseter. Yeah, I thought it was an interesting addition to the mix. Well, also it's kind of appropriate that he would collaborate with another writer. If you look at how he practices in the office, he's sort of drinking, not drinking his own Koolaid, but he's, he's, uh, he's doing what he preaches and I think that's quite powerful in this format.

Right. Yeah, exactly. And it's written in such a way too, that I feel like you can pick it up and not have to read it sequentially, although you'll kind of miss the, the grand story arc of his career and Pixar, but you can just dive into a chapter that interests you. I mean, The ones that really jumped out to me is this kind of epilogue about Steve jobs and also the one around the brain trust.

But, uh, one of my favorite stories is just how they had to reboot Ratatouille the film Ratatouille, like from the beginning. And they brought in Brad bird, who was the director of the Incredibles, which was, you know, at that time, the most successful Pixar movie. And they were like three years into the project.

When they said, you know what, it's not working. And they just kind of went back to, I think they said that, you know, he kept one line from the film and, and then, you know, in the old version of the rats, you know, didn't stand or they stood on two feet and then the new one, uh, Remy only stood, you know, when he was cooking, it was just really fascinating that they could put.

You know, probably a couple hundred people in three years of time into a project and still have the, the company. Yeah. Like the confidence to just be like, Nope, Nope, Nope. That was it. That was a try. That was a fail, you know, that was a failure. We're going to learn from it and we're going to try it again and, you know, and then they create Ratatouille, which I don't know exactly how much, but probably made over 150 or $200 million for them.

I think there's just so many stories like that, that. That, uh, make the book very worthwhile for anyone curious about either Pixar and the films that they make, or just how to bring out the creative process in a very diverse group of people. Yeah. And I would add for everyone that it's not just for movie companies, I think these practices apply well beyond that of Hollywood and the book is creativity and we'll have it on the site with the show notes.

You can find those. At moonshots.io. So now we're going to jump into the second part of the show. We've got a ton of good stuff. We're going to rip through these clips and we're going to take a different tangent. Now we're going to get into some of the things that upon reflection of, you know, making it safe, uh, having enough dumb ideas, having the brain trust, removing all those barriers.

There were some really big lessons that, that came to ed. And, uh, here's the first one where. Ed is talking about the trouble that we start to have when we're successful. And, um, I believe that in our success that we continue to make failures. A lot of that is just, is to come from introspection. What didn't work.

Um, personally, I don't believe we, uh, attribute to other people or to lock its role in making us what we are. And if you think about the luck or the good things that happened, or the, even the phenomenal luck of getting the right people there, and you appreciate that, then you are opening yourself up, but you need to recognize that.

And, uh, and then address the danger. And this is a danger. I, you know, I look at Disney right now who just came out of the failure and to say, well, okay, after you have enough successes, then at some point it begins to mess with their head. And that's for me, that's what cultural succession is to figure out how to keep yourself from drawing that wrong conclusion.

This parallel was so fascinating, too. The connection to bill Belichick, how he subsumes. You know the success and doesn't want it to go to their head. I'm just like, wow, this is bill Belichick through ed Catmull. I know. It's like, get those trophies out of here. Yeah, I think, uh, but just how, um, again, people that you would think are not very humble, actually seem, you know, through everything I've read and heard from ed to be quite humble in that.

Unexpectedly is actually probably what helps them be successful and you, and you can turn and look at the Patriots and the way bill Belichick has built that team. And that's kind of another proof point that, uh, not letting that go to your head can actually be much better in creating a cohesive team that works really well and is very consistent.

Right. And, um, I would say that you see a lot of companies release one or two good products. And then they go away. You see a great sports teams, have one, maybe two good seasons, but it's so rare to see a company come out with like 15, 16 hits in a row when five Superbowls under the same coach in quarters.

This is where you see, okay, here is what greatness looks like. That's why. You know, I love breaking, breaking that down to understand, and I would actually offer, uh, to you, uh, Simon, that we've, we've not only learned that being a learner for life seems to be a characteristic of all grades. Innovators, but I'm, I'm seeing a lot of this theme of humility or going a step further emotional maturity to, to care and nurture others around them.

You see a lot of that in successful leaders you work with, do you see this sort of humility and putting others before themselves? Yeah, look, I, I, I think I, I think I do. And, um, you know, I recently, uh, put out a, a little illustration after I heard a speaker say this quiet and said, you're not a leader until you develop another leader who can develop another leader and they'll put it out on LinkedIn and send a really big sort of conversation around it.

So I think that. That piece around that sort of humility and developing talent and, you know, leadership who can, you know, take other people forwards are a really important, I think just by the sort of the feedback of, of head on it. So finding you, finding leaders who are humble and, you know, help grow people just from what I've read and seen from this comment, they do exist everywhere.

And when it happens, it's a really powerful, it's a really powerful thing. And we saw this with Jack ma at Alibaba to Mike, where he specifically said that he only wanted to hire people who he thought could be their boss and just a few years. Yeah. That's a big theme. This idea that people that make you a little bit uncomfortable because they're so good.

You're like, Oh, man, I'm going to have to raise my game a little bit to, to, to, to keep up with, with these guys. And I think if you're feeling safe, that's an exciting challenge. I think if you're not in a safe environment, I think that becomes comes a threat and that's the sort of underlying condition.

That ed creates with people. And I think it's a great, uh, uh, lead into our next clip, which is all about how we see ourselves in relationship to others. So, Chad, do you want to set up this clip? How just let ed speak for himself here. He is talking about just that, trying to figure out how much of it was me versus all these other people that I knew would contribute it.

Now it's a natural question to ask. But I realized at the end of the year, that needing to answer, it was very bad. Its basic premise was one of separating me from the contributions of others. Now I know several people who've been successful and they asked that question all they, they will never admit it.

Um, but they need to find the answer. So. It took them down the wrong path. They separated them out from those people to see what they could do on their own, which is a wrong and selfish path since the whole should be greater than the sum of the parts. Breaking it into parts has no value. Love it. Yeah. So ed, he asks himself the question and how much of this failure or this success was me and this is kind of ed, the manager.

No thinking, and I love how he just kind of blows that question up and he's like, why do I need to separate myself from the whole and give myself undue or, you know, unearned success. But we're part of the failure. Yeah. And I think this ties into a theme that we saw with over Winfrey, which is, she was like, everyone's looking for validation.

Um, the, the interesting intersection here though, is people look to validate themselves rather than what they were part of and what they contributed to help others prosper. And this really. Really speaks to me because the analogy that I see here is back to, uh, bill Bellacheck with great sporting teams.

You can, you can just tell a great sporting team. When they are unselfish when they are hard working when the, their whole body language is about helping and encouraging others. And this seems to me to be a cultural shift that many companies struggle with. And I, it reminds me of working in the advertising industry, how, when we would win an award or you would put in some sort of award entry and you would have to put the names of the people that contributed.

And the fuss that PayPal made about who's named got on the list. And when you think about it, just because a core team worked on. A, uh, an advertising campaign doesn't mean that everybody else didn't contribute, you could even argue that they contributed by taking care of all the other things. So these people could hit a home run.

And I really liked the idea of, with things like that, that the whole company takes the credit rather than. Then individuals. And I think that act of selflessness speaks to, you know, great teams that really do add up to the sum of their parts. So I have a trick question here for you Simon, outside of your work, where else do you see this idea of not being selfish, but really contributing to others and allowing the sun to be greater than the individual parts?

Look out, I'd say, yeah, there's a lot in the, um, in the arts. And so if you're putting on a, you know, production or you bring something together, or I've got a lot of, um, a lot of people who I'm lucky enough to work with a very successful careers in the arts and, and they're involved in a lot of great. Uh, projects with the community or with people who are new to Australia or they're, you know, creating something that might involve 30 or 40 people.

And you know, that the focus they have is, uh, all ego aside and the, the focus is only on the end product. And so I see that way, you know, they focus on the problem and the solutions and that, you know, everyone aligning together. Build something much bigger than they could by themselves. So I guess I say that a lot of my, my colleagues here, as I said, you know, all artists, so I'm in the projects they're doing.

Yeah. The arts is notorious for that archetype or director with the scarf and the, and the, uh, the creative turtle neck kind of look. And it's all down to that one person, but it's never that simple. And I think that's the inspiring thing that ed. Continues to do is make a case for, for the team rather than the individuals, which you feel like Chad just drips through the holes of Pixar and he managed to get it to happen in, in Disney as well.

It's that's the most remarkable thing, right? Yeah. This is where I think his interesting perspective is useful for people outside of the entertainment industry or the arts. All of my favorite work experience, it says, have been on the extremely collaborative, you know, team over self environments. It's when we got the most things done.

It's when, you know, we're all emotionally invested in what we were doing and proud of what we had made, because filmmaking is such an enormous collaborative, I think the most collaborative work or some of the most collaborative work that teams can do. For ed to kind of sit above it and see, Oh, okay. This is how this system can function the best.

Now, how can I take this learning and share it to others so that it can work in a different context. And so this idea of not putting manners management above others and not trying to attribute your team or company success or failures on yourself. Is kind of a no brainer or taken for granted in the creative industries, but I feel like it's a very needed message and other areas and industries, right.

And this next clip, he goes into talking about this feeling of safety and what it can, can unlock within the organization. So here's our second last clip from ed about making it safe. So our job is to make it safe and the world is going to change whether or not we want to. So what is our response? New problems will continually arise.

Each of which creates new stresses. Our creativity is expressed in how we respond. Thank you.

I mean, that's the rara, that's his Braveheart speech right there. Like creativity is the tool to combat change, which is really interesting because Fred Smith from FedEx totally was up for, for change. And, and, and this is a, another thing, people embracing challenge. So as, as I'm talking about this, I've got like people, all of these gurus that we have decoded and deconstructed, they're all learners.

They're all humble. And they love a challenge. They, there seems to be through doing what they're passionate about. Nothing is too big, a mountain to conquer. I mean, when you hear lifelong learner, be humble, embrace the challenge. What, what comes to your mind? So, I mean, what, I mean, what would you add to that?

If you were talking to your younger self about achieving, you know, creative greatness, what would you add to a lifelong learner? Being humble and embracing the challenge. So what would, what would you throw in there? Is there any others that you think really define success? Well, like, I guess in a creative space, embrace the challenge and understand that the challenge is the randomness of it all.

And you, you, you're never sure how everything is going to pan out, but be open to all that, that randomness that will happen in the challenge. So the challenge is a, you know, embracing that randomness and, you know, the challenge is the fun part. And ed talks around the, you know, don't shy away from a risk.

Yeah. The risk is that the fun part they want to do. Risky things. So embrace challenges and embrace risk. And, you know, that's where that's where creativity can thrive the attitude and the mindset you take into that. And being okay with that, as you know, we're making a film when we're not sure where this will end up, because at the moment we don't, we don't have anything, you know, be open to the, those wonderful things that, you know, life and people and teams will throw up to you.

Yeah, I think, I think not fearing the unknown, uh, which seems to be a huge characteristic of large teams. They hate the unknown. They hate it when they, they can't manage all the risk out, but learning to be comfortable with, uh, the, the grayness that seems to be, to be really like a, like a, the playbook. So those beliefs.

Chad thinking about creativity as the, the answer to change in life. How did this make you feel when you, when you heard this and you think about your practicing storytelling and filmmaking creative every single day, how is this sort of your, your rally cry? I mean, did this really speak to you? Yeah, it goes along with something else and said where.

They always start with the sucky idea is like, you know, an idea is pitched and, or, you know, we see the storyboards strung together and it sucks and being okay with that and knowing that by coming together and doing the work it's going to get better and kind of the more chances, the more different influences and different people and perspectives and feedback and more iterations you go through the better it becomes.

And to not treat it as precious ever. I think that's been kind of common amongst most of the people we've profiled to is they're all extremely driven and persistent, but they're not so tied to a singular idea that like this must work or this must be it, you know, like Oprah started as like a news correspondence on the local news.

But she's like, Oh, what if I use TV in a slightly different way? And then all of a sudden she used it as a platform for herself and her message and became who she was or Fred Smith, who was like, well, you know what? My family has been in, in the, uh, in the airport plane service industry for a long time.

But like, what if I took these smaller planes and loaded them up with packages? There's no, you know, direct, you know, freight service. I just think the fact that. Ed and the Pixar creative team is just not satisfied with those initial ideas, because I'm sure that all of us here on this call included have kind of just shipped a very basic, uh, halfhearted kind of thing and said, you know, wham, bam, thank you.

Ma'am like, that's it. We're done, but it's never satisfying. Yeah. Sure, sure. So true. And you kind of know, it's almost like when you're a kid and you, and you stole a cookie out of the kitchen before dinner and you're like, I know I just did something really bad. It's really, for me, the, the, the ability to listen to that feeling.

And, and, and to know when you have to say poles, We got to go back. We've got to do it again. The Ratatouille story was classic that, and I think if a lot more companies ship products, where they had really asked those questions, we would enjoy a world with much better, much more usable, much more delightful products and services.

So this is the perfect theme to connect us to the last clip. And this is really where ed talks about his mission. This is where he talks about these moments, where we face the fire. When we have to listen to our instincts and our intuition, and we can make choices either good or bad ones. And let's have a listen to him talking about, uh, what happens when we come to these moments.

But the, the overall is that the films are great. And that's what you get as a result of being willing to pull or to make a really tough decision at the end. And I take a lot of pride in that. So like, okay, this is where we express our values. It's when the films come out, we love the fact that people want them, but we are, they enjoying them.

We affect culture in that way. But the, the, the exciting part where the adrenaline goes is when you get there and it's like, Holy crap, we've got a problem here. And then you do the right thing, the moments, right. When you're looking at it. And you're like, and I have you, have you, Simon had experiences where you're working on a project and you're looking at it and you're thinking.

Uh, Oh, this isn't good. Yeah. Yeah. I've got a, I've got a painting in my lounge room that I've been looking at that I started 12 years ago. And, uh, are they looking at trying to resolve it for, uh, 12 years and I keep it there and I change it and I put it back and I change it. And so in an artistic sense, I know I, uh, I know I haven't solved that, so I'm going to keep going with it.

Uh, you know, till I have. That challenge, you know, like you've put it in your living room, Simon, you know, where you have to face it with. I love that. It's very, um, very much in the spirit of what ed has been talking about in these closely than listening to. Yeah. It's that little Eric that sits inside of me that makes me want to keep working at it numb.

But look, I also might be at this stage where one day I just do blow it up as a, as a, you know, ed and them have done on concert and things, but I know there's a solution, but I'm, I'm still, I'm still striving to, uh, to find, but I also know I wouldn't, I would never exhibited because I'm not even that lots of people like it.

I'm not, um, I'm very. Yeah, I'm still very unhappy with how it is. That's the key thing that we're learning from, from ed Catmull that he would never put. That artwork into a public collection. Cause he knows it. It's not good enough. He has created an environment where people feel okay to say yes, it's really not quite there yet.

And I think that's the brutal honesty that feels not threatening, but it sort of focuses everyone's minds toward. Okay, well let's try some other approaches and yeah, I think that at the heart of what we're discussing  is the. There is that ability to, to not let ego get in the way there's this ability to, to make it safe for others.

And in fact, really his job seems to have been, to make everybody wildly successful around him. And, um, I'm sure he's not contributed to the success of the directors of his films, but to Steve jobs as well, because you know, he is a big part of the late years of Steve jobs and. That's obviously when all that, all the success was there.

So I feel like this concept of you're facing that moment. Uh, don't, don't give in and say, ah, it'll be fine. Stand there and say, it's not right. And, and I have to tackle this. And in the end, that leads to two great products, great services, great films and ideas. Great artworks, even for, for someone like ed.

I think we can, we can expand that into things we see in all parts of, of our life. So guys there, you have it. We have done close to nine, 10 clips going into the world of ed Catmull. I want to open it up now for both of you guys. Let's maybe start with Simon. What closing thoughts do you have? On ed Catmull.

And what are the biggest things that you're going to try and do today to, to sort of use his learnings in your practice? Well, uh, the big moments, uh, uh, stuck out for me and also reinforced, uh, one of what I. A lot of what I know is just that one around fear, creating that safe place. And I guess my constant battle is how do I, the people I work with who I would say, you know, 95% of them will come into that room with a, I am not creative Simon.

And I'll say, well, you know, that's not true, but you haven't seen me. I really am. I really am not created had how do you, um, you can work with people in that room to shift it. How do you then continue to ingrain that? In a culture where, um, you know, it is a safe place and that the fear of, you know, saying something dumb as gone.

And I think that's the, the biggest handbrake on, uh, you know, innovation, especially in large organizations, just that fear. So, you know, I would encourage every, um, every leader, every team leader, every, uh, you know, person in a team, you know, create a space where it's, you know, it's okay that, you know, to, to share ideas, no matter how half baked they are.

And I guess the other big one I want to, you know, continue to share with people is the end product is not the first cup. Like we, we see these movies and we think, Oh, they're so talented. They're so creative. But the mistakes they made on the way that they break. And the messiness and the abstractness.

Yeah. Ripping things up and blowing, you know, blowing them up, lets them create world class products. But you know, that's not linear and it's not a single of a process. So it seemed bracing that ambiguity and understanding behind all that, uh, those fantastic products is a whole, you know, there's a, the whole world of creativity, the whole world of randomness.

But most importantly, there's, you know, empowered people who are happy to, you know, to, to explore and share and give honest feedback and, you know, take risks. Yeah, I totally agree. And I like the idea of that. The cut that we see, the film that we see has had about a million edits before we've seen it. And not just to think it does drops from it from the sky.

Uh, that really spoke to me too. How about you, Chad? What, what stood out from the stories and the thinking of ed Catmull for you? I felt like the idea of the brain trust kind of encapsulated a lot of, of ed and Pixars philosophy of creating the right environment kind of emotionally and holding a container as well as putting the right people into the mix as well.

He's very adamant about. How from the very beginning of Pixar, they always recruited people for themselves and not for their ideas that you give great ideas to mediocre people, and they will absolutely ruin them, but you give mediocre ideas to great people. And they can turn them into great ideas or for them out because of bad ideas and come up with better ideas themselves.

And I feel like, yeah, I feel like that is maybe something that I can, I kind of take for granted in the creative field, um, because of that. Is kind of my defacto way of, of working, but I'm, I'm curious to even more kind of formalize this process of bringing the right group of people around us specific project or, uh, or product or service and having that real candor, almost like to borrow a phrase, um, From a guy that I've read and respect, Blair ends it, he calls it kind ruthlessness.

That's necessary to bring out the best work kind. Rueful from there. I like this idea of being able to speak to the work and that nobody is worried about taking it personally. And I too love the brain trust as a practice like. One thing that I can formalize today is trust. I really much like both of you.

I work. A lot with ideas. Um, particularly the very ambiguous at the start before they get built and designed into products and all that kind of good stuff. But, you know, the thing is that we kind of informally have something like a brains trust. But what I realize is that the way we're reviewing probably a little bit too top down and that we should build a practice.

Yes. That is more equalizing. So that everyone can contribute to the idea and that it's a safe, it's a safe place to do it. And. I think that's the biggest takeaway for me too. So you have it, everyone. We've, we've done a good hour and 20 minutes. If not more going through the universe of ed Catmull, there were plaintiffs.

See plenty of clips that didn't make the list. Um, you can go to our show notes@moonshots.io. You'll find a link. Uh, to all of the long form interviews or linked to the book and any of the other good things, uh, that we've we've mentioned. And, uh, we really do encourage you not only to check out the show notes, what are our other calls to action?

Chad? What do we want folks to be doing? Well, I just wanted to give a shout out to juice and I hope I'm pronouncing your name correctly. A listener. Uh, that provided some, some great feedback. I think his vote for top episode was our very first episode on Elon Musk. Um, for any new listeners to the show, I'd highly encourage you to, uh, to go back through our back back catalog if you will.

Um, but I w. Honestly, I love getting feedback and emails from, from all of you listeners. And just wanted to say thank you for continuing this zigzag journey through, uh, innovation that, that Mike and I have forged, you know, through the likes of Oprah to, to China and Jack ma and Alibaba to bill Belicheck, the coach of the Patriots now to ed Catmull.

I, um, it's been a really fun experience and, um, You know, just want to hear who you think the listener should be. You profiled here on the show. Mike and I would be absolutely up for, uh, for a listeners suggestion. So the first time we get a good suggestion we'll um, we'll, we'll we'll record a show. Yeah, and full credit to whoever gives it to us.

I want to kick it back to Simon and ask, obviously, when we invited you on the show, you had the chance to listen to a couple of shows, uh, which one was your favorite and why? All right. That's a good, uh, question. Look, I, um, let me say, I probably like the last one that you did around a bill by Chuck or by Chuck, if I've got that hour.

And I just really liked the, um, the deep dive that you did around, uh, the learnings for him and, yeah, that's someone I had heard of the name, but, you know, being an Australian when we don't follow the NFL that much on myself personally. So just to get an insight into his, um, His philosophy and just his lack of ego, as well as a leader.

I think that was just a really great insight to his, you know, openness and honesty. So yeah, that's probably closest in my mind, but also really enjoyed the Fred Smith one. Just his passion was unbelievable to be here. Yeah. Almost 50 years in that company and, and still is the excite. And I think there's a.

It's a written note to self that when your passion is, you know, maybe wavering it's time to, you know, stop, you know, refresh or, you know, actually thinking, am I the right person to be doing what I'm doing, but that, that passion pace. And I think, yeah, it kept Moscow that in that passion in him as well. So that's sort of where long answer to your question.

Yeah. But then there's some of the things which are, I've really liked listening to. Yeah, no, I love that. That's great feedback. And, uh, before we wrap up, can you tell us a little bit about how people can find you and please tell us a bit more about this book that is coming. Okay. I can be found a bond by websites.

I'm in bank stock, home that I knew, uh, with regards to the socials, uh, on LinkedIn I'm on Instagram at Simon banks, C R a I. Number eight, um, and same handle on Twitter. Look, I'm, uh, I'm pretty good on LinkedIn and Instagram. I get a little bit loose on the rest sort of being engaged as, as I showed, but, you know, I've, I've picked my top ones and just a little bit about the book.

Um, I just wanted to make this innovation stuff a little bit more simple. Cause I think he played as so overawed by this innovation piece that we know it's important, but not quite sure where to start. Um, so yeah, part of that was just showing that, you know, it's, it's actually really normal to innovate and create.

We've been doing it since day dot. I want to put the fun back, back into it all because it feels really good to, uh, and you know, Chad and Mike, you're both, um, I guess both people who've made things and create. Things and yeah, that feels really good. There's a, there's a piece inside of us that, you know, he's balling to create.

So I sort of consider, you know, walking, talking, breathing, creating, they're all, they're all one in the same, but we dropped the creative piece. So I guess I wanted to make a lot more fun and also show that, you know, an innovation mindset. It doesn't take more time, which is one of the big things that, you know, people are lacking a large corporates, are we all lack, but you know, it's a, um, it's just a shift in how you spend your time and, you know, open your eyes.

And the last thing is, uh, it's all about people. The great people already exist in your organization, and it's just doing exactly what I'm. Ed Catmull Davis and providing the right environment for those people to thrive. And, you know, large organizations are sitting on an absolute gold mine that their talent, because the ideas are already there just letting them thrive.

So, yeah, I probably rambled again a little bit at the end, but I guess that's okay. I view about the book and yeah, hopefully it'll be a fun read. Okay. So give us the name and where, uh, when can we expect to get into our hot little hands? Because I had the great fortune of having a preread of what I felt like was pretty much close to final copy.

So give us a sense of where we can be on the lookout in the, in the name of the book. Okay. The name of the book is a thousand little light bulbs. How to kickstart a culture of innovation in your organization, uh, comes back from the printers in a couple of weeks, and then it will be on, uh, Amazon and the usual spots a couple of weeks after that.

But you also have a, uh, a page up on my website and the next few days where you can yeah. Order and then be directed to a, you know, where to buy that online as well. Fantastic. Fantastic. Okay. Well, I feel like the most important thing we want our listeners to do is to check out the show notes@moonshots.io, where they can catch up not only on this episode, but all of the episodes and, um, The, the exciting thing is looking forward in the calendar.

We're going to have a special guest, join us to go into the deep world of small, great women entrepreneurs. Uh, so be on the lookout for that, but we've also got plenty of other opportunities. Who's, who's kind of on, um, on your radar chat for the next episodes. I don't know, you threw out lady Gaga the other day, and I don't know anything about her.

So she, she's kind of intriguing to me to make another zag in sort of like the music world. Yes. Yes. Yes, we have Gaga, which could be great. I know we're going to do Martha Stewart as well. I have another one that I found recently. What about Serina Williams? Another that's going back into sports. I think we have to go somewhere else.

Although not a coach, but uh, I mean, she's, um, Do you feel like a, and this is a question for Sony. Are there any great innovators or entrepreneurs you feel like, you know, we haven't touched on that comes to mind. That would be amazing for us to deconstruct. I was thinking from the art world, Simon, maybe someone like Jeff Koons.

Look, uh, yeah, there are so many great people from the arts and a great way to explore how they, um, explore, you know, how they apply process. So that mixture of process and creativity as well and how they interplay. I would like to do see you do something like, uh, maybe someone like a Salvador Dali because he was.

Constant, uh, constantly, uh, reinvented, you know, his work and he did stuff with architecture and sculpture and painting and accessing his subconscious. And, uh, just that he would wake up every day and say, you know, today I'm I'm alive or the joy of being Salvador, Dali and excited about what he would create.

So I think someone like that would be a great deep dive, but you know, in the world of the arts, there, there are so many people. Well, maybe even someone like a Banksy because he doesn't have any press on him at all. So he might be an interesting, deep dive as well. Oh yeah. Banksy. I like that. That all banks and that's going really well there.

You've got it. We've got a little bit of collaboration. We had a little bit of a, a, a bit of a brain trust right there. And so my man has brought us the goods. Well, I want to say thank you to everyone for listening. It's just great to see how many people are listening on iTunes and SoundCloud. Were just so excited about producing this together.

Thank you to use Simon for, for joining us. It's been great to have you on the show. We'll be sure to put a link out to all of the listeners for your new book, and we wish you the very best, uh, but tell us Simon, what's the rest of your creative day. Hold for you. What's what's next. After the show. First thing, I'm going to have some breakfast and then I'm going to go for a swim speech.

And look, I've actually got a couple of illustrations to finish off this afternoon. Um, and that that'll pretty much round out the day. Sounds like a good day. I don't know, Chad, if you can even be dad what's, what's the rest of your day looking like. Oh, I'm going to have a nice glass of a local Michigan hard cider here.

And the prepare for my, my shoot tomorrow, you know, charge the batteries and, and prep all the gear. Yeah, the good old preproduction. Well, I'm, I'm gonna continue drinking green, pure green tea with a dash of honey to rid me of this cold. And, uh, I'm looking to enjoy some of Sydney's great, uh, spring sunshine.

So, uh, once again, both Chad and Simon. Thank you ever so much, that's it from me wrapping up and we'll see you on moonshots.